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| Latest Threads |
Combination of pch glyphs
Forum: Analysis of the text
Last Post: ReneZ
2 hours ago
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Analysis of patterns at t...
Forum: Analysis of the text
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4 hours ago
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[split] VMS mailing list ...
Forum: Voynich Talk
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Yesterday, 08:24 AM
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Eleven Moon Phases in Fol...
Forum: Astrology & Astronomy
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Speculative fraud hypothe...
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The journey into an unkno...
Forum: Theories & Solutions
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How to prove that the B-l...
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My Theory: RITE — Ritual ...
Forum: Theories & Solutions
Last Post: oaken
13-09-2025, 08:47 PM
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Positional Mimic Cipher (...
Forum: Analysis of the text
Last Post: quimqu
13-09-2025, 06:58 PM
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No text, but a visual cod...
Forum: Theories & Solutions
Last Post: Antonio García Jiménez
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| [split] (lack of) word groups |
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Posted by: -JKP- - 01-07-2019, 12:07 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (39)
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[Edit by Koen: I split this thread for the discussion of a statement by Gordon Rugg]
I actually agree with some of the statements in the article, even though Rugg and I have different perspectives on the VMS, but this statement:
"Here’s one example. All real languages have regularities in word order. In English, ‘I drink coffee’ is a grammatically accurate sentence but ‘coffee drink I’ isn’t. But the words in the Voynich Manuscript You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in their order. That reason alone is enough to eliminate all known languages from being candidates..."
... is a rather context-dependent statement. If the VMS is a simple substitution cipher, then maybe this kind of generalization can be made, but I'm pretty sure it isn't.
It isn't even necessarily a cipher.
Even if it is a cipher, it doesn't take much manipulation to obscure underlying sentence structure, and thus the grammar (if there is any).
Plus, it's not necessarily true that there are no regularities in the word order. There are line patterns and paragraph patterns. This doesn't necessarily mean Voynichese is natural language, but it does mean there are regularities of certain kinds throughout the text. It's not random.
So I think we have to be careful about statements like this until we have a better understanding of VMS text.
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| [Merged] Stars identified |
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Posted by: Monica Yokubinas - 27-06-2019, 05:01 PM - Forum: Astrology & Astronomy
- Replies (32)
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These are the stars that i have identified so far on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Some of these translations coincide with some very old names for the stars in the constellations. I had to reverse the image so it would match a current star chart that i have.
VM translation = Ahyan or Ain in Hebrew and Arabic and means eye. Ain was the name of the star Epsilon Tauri, the eye of the bull Taurus.
VM translation = Ryaz or Ra’as is the ancient name for Al-Ghul/Algol or Beta Persei the Demon Star.
VM translation = ayang = Al-Janah or the wing is Epsilon Cygni.
VM translation = Achayayaz or Mirzan Al-Jawza, is Sirius. Ach can mean firepot or brother.
VM translation aurig or Auriga is clearly translated as it is.
There one for the white spot of Orion is in the wrong place and I am trying to figure it out. Could be they misused a name for a different part of the constellation. I'll update when complete.
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| Unconventional Methods in Voynich Manuscript Analysis |
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Posted by: Torsten - 26-06-2019, 11:25 PM - Forum: News
- Replies (25)
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New article about the VMS: "You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view."
The article is open access. The authors use fractal geometry to analyze the VMS alongside the Ernst Hemingway book "The Old Man and the Sea", and the Bible.
The authors conclude:
Quote:Our results indicate, that Voynich manuscript is likely written in some natural language because a) its fractal dimension set it among the Hemingway’s novel The Old Man and the Sea, analyzed in the same way in 120 languages, b) complex network maps, generated from Voynich manuscript is significantly different from complex networks maps based on random texts.
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| Manly's views about the Voynich MS |
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Posted by: ReneZ - 26-06-2019, 10:15 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (8)
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Nick wrote:
Quote:If anyone has access to articles written by John Matthews Manly about the Voynich I'd be very interested to see them. I suspect that he had a different opinion again, but it would be nice to know either way for sure.
I am aware of three papers:
- The Most Mysterious Manuscript in the World: Did Roger Bacon Write It and Has the Key Been Found? in Harper's Monthly Magazine 143 (1921): pp. 186-97
- Roger Bacon's Cypher Manuscript, American Review of Reviews, LXIV, 1921, pp.105-106
- Roger Bacon and the Voynich MS. Speculum 6, July 1931, pp. 345-391
The second is probably a summary of the first and I don't have it. I have the other two, but suspect so has Nick. The first is a fence-sitting review of Newbold, while the third is a refutation.
More interesting is what Manly thought himself about what the text represents.
There is a note by Anne Nill in the Grolier Library that says:
Quote:Prof. Manly in his letter of March 26, 1920, to W.M.V says:
"I still think there is a possibility that the cipher is less complicated than he [Prof.Newbold] believes, and is largely disguised by the use of nulls. As we are entirely ignorant of the language underlying the cipher, it seems me the only way in which the nulls can be isolated is by comparing the relative frequencies of the symbols on a considerable number of pages. I have as you know, eight sheets. This number is, I think, hardly sufficient for the purpose in question.
It seems that Voynich then sent him more sheets. Also, he had sent a similar letter to Newbold.
The first letter is likely to be preserved in the Beinecke, but I have not seen it.
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| Voynich stars and Persian, Arab, Indian astronomy |
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Posted by: Monica Yokubinas - 25-06-2019, 12:56 PM - Forum: Astrology & Astronomy
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This is not a secure site, Iranian encyclopedia online, Very interesting detailed history of astronomy, and a long read, but thought a few of you might be interested as it talked about how the stars were classed by 3 magnitudes. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
"Stars. While the term stā/ăr may refer to any of the luminous heavenly bodies, “fixed star” is either stārag ī awiyābānīg (Bundahišn; chap. 2.5, p. 27.6) or axtar; the latter also indicates “constellation” and “zodiacal sign.” Stars were classed physically according to three magnitudes (wuzurgīh); for these and for estimates of the size and velocity of the heavenly bodies, see Bundahišn, chap. 2 in Henning, “Astronomical Chapter.” Two levels were assigned to the stars. The upper level was that of the “stars not subject to mingling.” These fought the tenth battle of the original creation and kept the demons from ascending farther (Bundahišn, chap. 2.9, 6 I, pp. 28.1-10, 71.4-11 ). "
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| Quick Q.: What were the 18 languages Wilfrid supposedly spoke? Sources? |
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Posted by: voynichbombe - 24-06-2019, 05:35 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (8)
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hi All,
while I'm afraid there will be no (easy) answer to this, maaaaybe someone has a clue to another source that is more detailed?
because wikipedia says it. the only source reachable is a book containing a short part about the "life & times" of W.M.V., a narration of Anne Nill about some peculiarities of W.'s use of the english language, and that he claimed "to speak 18 languages, all of them equally badly". yeah, you know.. fishing in the dark here, but if someone can show me some light, thank you.
the other source is probably an obituary in The Times (paywalled), but I guess similarly, ah, dubious.
best
gert
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| FBI Paper on the Voynichs |
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Posted by: voynichbombe - 24-06-2019, 03:05 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (1)
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Hi All,
as I saw the post about the NSA paper here, maybe the FBI predecessor file on the V. couple, which is also declassified, may be of interest:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I have no idea if this is complete, the reproductions are bad. have to "investigate" later.
best
gert
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| Why Roger Bacon? |
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Posted by: J.R Moore - 24-06-2019, 04:39 AM - Forum: Provenance & history
- Replies (4)
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It's universally agreed that Roger Bacon had nothing to do with the VMS for obvious reasons, but what's less clear is why that was ever supposed in the first place. The theory's origin can be traced to Mnisovsky via Marci's letter to Kircher:
"Dr. Raphael, tutor in the Bohemian language to Ferdinand III, then King of Bohemia, told me said book had belonged to the emperor Rudolf and that he presented to the bearer who brought him the book 600 ducats. He believed the author was Roger Bacon.”
It's also generally agreed that there's nothing in the contents of the MS itself to suggest a Baconian origin. All the 20th century scholarship on the subject was clearly a post-hoc contrivance predicated on this letter. Had there been no such letter it's entirely likely that no one would have ever thought to mention Bacon.
What I'm curious to know is why did [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Mnisovsky assume it to be the work of Bacon in the first place? If we accept that there's nothing to indicate Bacon in the VMS itself, then we must assume that the theory arose for other reasons. I believe the most likely alternative is that he was either told this by somebody else and was merely passing on the information to Marci, or that he himself made the assumption based on circumstances of the MS's arrival in Rudolf's court. Either way, I find myself returning the same individual: John Dee. At the time, Dee had the world's largest known collection of Bacon's works at his home library in Mortlake, and held him as a personal hero. Dee was an associate of Edward Kelly who himself had a working relationship with Karl Wideman. I know positing Dee as the seller has long been out fashion, and that's not the point I'm trying to make. Dee may not have been the seller, but I cannot think of a simpler, more compelling, explanation for the origin of the Bacon theory as other than having something to do with Dee. [/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Dee may not have ever touched the VMS in his life for this to still be true. It's entirely plausible that it was sold to Wideman via Kelly sometime after Dee's departure from the continent. He could have easily claimed that it came from Dee's Bacon collection which would have been perfectly consistent with his well documented charlatanism. Regardless of whether or not the VMS was in the possession of Dee, I'd like to know if there is a more compelling source of the Bacon theory other than stemming from the world's most prolific Bacon devotee who happened to be in the right place and right time for such a idea to catch on? For if not stemming from Dee in some way, why not claim a Czech or German author? Or a scholar from anywhere but England for that matter? [/font]
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![[Image: 46v47r.png]](https://voynichviews.files.wordpress.com/2019/06/46v47r.png)