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Quire 13. Text first. Pictures after.
- Quire 13. Text first. Pictures after.
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Quire 13. Text first. Pictures after.
dashstofsk > 14-12-2025, 02:31 PM
Has it ever been discussed that in quire 13 it seems that the pictures might have been done after the text had been written? The writer left spaces for the drawings to be added later? And all the tubes, ponds and flower pot things were then sized to fit the available space? Here is some evidence.
- f79r and f79v. The text margin is straight and does not flow around the contours of the pictures.
- f81r. Space had been left on the right of the page for drawings that were never made. There wasn't enough space at the top to fully draw the bath tub thing that was intended. The bath tub at the bottom has also not been completed. Perhaps the writer just got annoyed with himself and abandoned this page.
- f84v. The text on the right does not align with the bulk of the text. If text came last then it would have aligned. So it looks like that text was added after the drawings were done, and these drawings after the main text was done.
- f75r. If drawings came first then it is unlikely the first drawing would have been done slanty.
- f82v and other pages. The drawings on the right hand sides were done cramped. Had they been done first they would have commanded more space and the writing would have stopped short.
- f79r and f79v. The text margin is straight and does not flow around the contours of the pictures.
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RE: Quire 13. Text first. Pictures after.
ReneZ > 14-12-2025, 02:48 PM
I have also wondered about it. Contrary to the other sections, many of the illustrations are in the margins of the page, but then again, many others are not.
Seems hard to decide. -
RE: Quire 13. Text first. Pictures after.
Koen G > 14-12-2025, 04:06 PM
It's good to question things we "know for sure" and actually revisit the evidence. In this case though, I'm just not sure if we could say for the entirety of Q13 that the text came first. You mention f75r. If the text came first, that means the scribe did something like this (I accidentally erased the smaller text in the triangle top left - had it been kept, the effect would have been even more bizarre):
This is the kind of layout we expect when the text is following a picture that's already there. This is not different from what's happening in the Herbal pages. So why not expand it to those as well? Did the writer(s) leave weird spaces everywhere, that were creatively filled up with drawings? What would be their reason for doing so? -
RE: Quire 13. Text first. Pictures after.
nablator > 14-12-2025, 07:06 PM
(14-12-2025, 04:06 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.the triangle top left
The scribe who added the text in this triangle is the same one who noticed that a line is missing on the left, and added kchedykary. Probably the same hand that added some labels in the Zodiac f73, with a different ink and a pen that has no flat surface (metal point?) -
RE: Quire 13. Text first. Pictures after.
Jorge_Stolfi > 14-12-2025, 07:26 PM
(14-12-2025, 02:31 PM)dashstofsk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.f81r. Space had been left on the right of the page for drawings that were never made.
It seems that this area was left blank because there was something wrong with the surface of the vellum, that caused the text to blur, like writing on wet paper. Check the end of line 5, and of several lines below that.
Look closely: there is a "water" or "grease" stain in that area and several creases of the vellum that converge towards it. Also, the dent midway along the edge of that panel, with a brown halo, was almost certainly a hole in the hide. Above that hole, the cut that defines the edge of that panel deviates several mm from the straight line -- as if to avoid some defect of the vellum, to the right of it.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: Quire 13. Text first. Pictures after.
Jorge_Stolfi > 14-12-2025, 07:31 PM
(14-12-2025, 02:31 PM)dashstofsk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.f75r. If drawings came first then it is unlikely the first drawing would have been done slanty.
There is some text in the area between the "water slide" in the top half of the page and the "mug handle" channel on the left side of it. It is probably the labels for the nymphs on the "slide". That text, at least, was written after the drawing (an it is in smaller "font", and not aligned with the text outside the "handle".
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: Quire 13. Text first. Pictures after.
Koen G > Yesterday, 11:10 AM
(Yesterday, 10:28 AM)dashstofsk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Sorry, it is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that has the slanty diagram.
Ah, I see what you mean. I guess we're assessing likelihoods here, and to me it seems extremely unlikely that the text came first. Look at the bottom central curve in the margin. This is what you get when text hugs an irregular image. Why would they do that instead of just making a regular straight margin like they do elsewhere? Also the text above the bottom pool is leaving gaps.
And the place where the drawing is slanted, which I indicated with orange arrows. Look how the text block is compacted there. This is not just slanted text, it is text receding from something that's already there.
So what is more likely? All of the above, or simply the artist (having a blank page at their disposal) drawing a slanted pool? -
RE: Quire 13. Text first. Pictures after.
Bernd > 11 hours ago
The whole page is odd. Maybe we should consider a more complex history.
The two uppermost text blocks (red) start parallel to the vellum but slant downwards as they progress left, filling the space to the blue Wolkenband of the upper drawing that is canted in a similar angle. The text looks crammed especially on the left. I would not rule out that the scribe wrote the first letters of the paragraph but then realized he could not keep up the tight spacing.
The lower edge of the uppermost text block is canted by about -6° just like the upper margin of the Wolkenband. The lower Margin of the Wolkenband and the text between the columns is canted by about -9°. The water columns raining down on the nymphs have a cant of more than -10°. The nymphs outstretched arms are back to about -6° as is the lower edge of the green pool. What's your opinion on this? Where did the artist start this drawing? The nymphs? If they ended up in a slightly downward row that might have been further amplified as the drawing progressed upwards. Especially beginners/children often rotate the page while drawing which can result in accidentally canted images. I think the key to solve this riddle is to understand if the upper image was written top-bottom or bottom-top. I can't tell, maybe someone can. The text between the water columns (purple) was certainly added later.
The paragraph below the green pool (orange) looks like it was crammed into the space left to the next paragraph which is the only one that is reasonably straight (yellow). Curiously all text surrounding the 2nd pool (green) does the opposite of the text above. It starts spread out on the left and becomes increasingly compressed and canted upwards toward the right. As if the scribe sought to over-compensate his mistake from the upper text block.
As of why the pool had this corner, similarly no idea. Maybe the source image already had this feature with surrounding text in a similar manner?
I think a layout for this page must have existed but it look like neither artist nor scribe were able to follow it correctly. -
RE: Quire 13. Text first. Pictures after.
Koen G > 11 hours ago
Considering the green pool and overhead features, the first thing drawn of that was likely the bottom line of the pool. It was not possible to draw the nymphs' legs without that line. I imagine the overhead thing was then drawn with "the same" slant as the pool, using the nymphs' heads as guidance for where the bulbous protrusions should be.
The reason for the slant then appears pretty straightforward: the base line for the pool is uneven, moving up and down, throwing off all sense of orientation. Everything after that had to cope with the slant. It's like one of those medical diagrams where a slight difference in leg length can lead to shoulder problems.