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Welcome, Guest You have to register before you can post on our site. Username/Email:    Password    Remember me Search Forums (Advanced Search) Online Users There are currently 379 online users. » 1 Member(s) | 374 Guest(s) Applebot, Bing, Google, Yandex, cvetkakocj@rogers.com Latest Threads Wherefore art thou, aberi... Forum: Imagery Last Post: R. Sale 2 hours ago » Replies: 6 » Views: 106 Unpainted version of VMS Forum: News Last Post: oshfdk 2 hours ago » Replies: 57 » Views: 7,236 [split] Darker ink, retra... Forum: Voynich Talk Last Post: Koen G 8 hours ago » Replies: 66 » Views: 1,493 What Lies Beneath: Statis... Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: davidma 8 hours ago » Replies: 8 » Views: 199 Pisces (Folio 70v) and th... Forum: Astrology Last Post: Dobri Yesterday, 01:37 PM » Replies: 33 » Views: 3,729 Voynich Manuscript Day sh... Forum: News Last Post: Koen G Yesterday, 08:50 AM » Replies: 6 » Views: 321 ol most likely translates... Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: anyasophira Yesterday, 06:45 AM » Replies: 1 » Views: 158 Single Leg Gallows Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: Jorge_Stolfi 07-06-2025, 02:14 PM » Replies: 34 » Views: 1,081 An attempt at extracting ... Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: davidd 07-06-2025, 12:27 PM » Replies: 69 » Views: 4,497 Can scribal hands be corr... Forum: Imagery Last Post: Hider 07-06-2025, 10:48 AM » Replies: 11 » Views: 566

Texts in Red Ink? Or any other non-Black Ink? Posted by: ChenZheChina - 11-01-2019, 08:23 AM - Forum: Physical material - Replies (4) I believe that this should have been discussed a lot, and many people have noticed this. But I could not find much information, so I started a thread to ask my questions. When I was checking f67r2 , I noticed that there are some texts in red. I suddenly realized that most texts were in black. The only red texts I could remember were the symbols on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and these red texts on f67r2 .   f67r2.jpg (Size: 245.3 KB / Downloads: 147) My questions are: Is there any other texts in red color? Is there any other non-black texts? What might they mean?   Why does the blue paint look like this? Posted by: Koen G - 10-01-2019, 07:39 PM - Forum: Physical material - Replies (13) In another thread, Marco referred to McCrone's report about the blue ink: I selected some blue surfaces from the large plants (first 20 or so folios). Each clip is from a different folio. As you see, there are a few ways in which the blue paint looks off. Sometimes there are dark spots, and often something yellowish shines through:   blues.jpg (Size: 226.47 KB / Downloads: 323) What are your thoughts about this? Has anyone researched paint preparation before? Is the blue-yellow a result of a suboptimal blend of different substances? Or is the yellow merely a result of a lighter blue wash with pen ink? Or are these the cuprite traces mentioned in the report? Or - and this is where we enter Voynich territory - does the blue mask a color that was previously applied? While compiling this, I notice the ugliest blue is often found near yellow surfaces. Similar things are found throughout the MS. Here's an example from the "white Aries" page. The top nymph has a light blue barrel where the wash seems mixed with yellow. The bottom one gets a relatively even blue, in quality not worse than the red of her dress.   Naamloos-5.jpg (Size: 83.58 KB / Downloads: 335)   Voynich buys some Jesuit manuscripts Posted by: ReneZ - 08-01-2019, 05:10 PM - Forum: Provenance & history - Replies (42) Voynich's acquisition of the Voynich MS, as part of a larger group of manuscripts, has always been surrounded by mystery, and it is something that has intrigued me for about 20 years now. It may not be the most popular topic in discussion groups like this, since it will not tell us anything about the meaning of the MS or the meaning of its text. The recent blog post of Rich (whose family name is actually given incorrectly in the Blogosphere), and especially the ensuing exchange of comments, made me realise how little is know about progress on this particular topic. The main problem is that Voynich has presented several different versions of the 'story of his discovery'. Quite in general, he is someone whose words have to be treated with extreme care, as he had a strong tendency to exaggerate, to the point of inventing stories that never happened. However, over the years I have been able to collect a growing body of independent evidence related to this acquisition, and to the time preceding it. In particular, a document preserved in the Vatican archives, which I first saw in May 2015, could clarify most of the mystery. This document, preserved as Arch.Bibl.109 is a photographic copy of an original that seems to be lost. It is dated 1903, and it presents a list of manuscripts offered for sale to the Vatican, by the society of Jesus. Most of these manuscripts were finally incorporated in the Vatican library in 1912, and they are included in a catalogue by Jose Ruysschaert published in 1959. He remarks that some manuscripts that should have been included in this sale are actually missing. He makes a list of them (in footnote in the 1959 catalogue) and indicates that they all seem to have been acquired by W. Voynich. Indeed, the 1903 catalogue includes essentially all these manuscripts that Voynich acquired. This means that: These manuscripts were never lost. The Jesuits were simply keeping them in hiding, until the time they decided to sell them Voynich did not discover them, like he always claimed. Instead, he was invited to buy a number of them, under promise of secrecy. The letter by Ethel Voynich, to be opened after her death, appears to be accurate in all details. So at least Voynich seems to have told *her* the truth. For anyone interested in all details, please feel invited to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . (But it's not a short read).   f56r Posted by: Koen G - 07-01-2019, 09:46 AM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (6) I noticed something about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which might be relevant. A quick search on the forum didn't bring up much, apart from JKP's suggestion that it may be a sundew and David's fan palm. I see why one would think of Sundew (the curl of the flowers) but it seems to me that there are more arguments in favor of something palmy. An obvious indication is in the stem, which seems to bear the typical marks of lost leaves. Although I'm sure this also appears in other kinds of plants, it is most notable in certain kinds of palms.   palm.jpg (Size: 133.8 KB / Downloads: 180) But I also noticed the leaves have been drawn in a very weird way. There are two lines at the tips, as if some tip extension has been added which was not colored. I did a very rudimentary trace of a part:   Naamloos-4.jpg (Size: 106.55 KB / Downloads: 173) This again reminds me of palm trees, which easily develop differently colored leaf tips. That does leave to be explained everything that's blue, from the insides of the leaves to the big flowers to the curled structure. Thoughts? Edit: I guess the blue could indicate a further color gradient. Leaves which start a deep green in the centre, look greener in the fingers and tend to discolor at the tips.   Parchment/Vellum/Skin Details Posted by: -JKP- - 04-01-2019, 05:59 PM - Forum: Physical material - No Replies This is an older link, but it's possible people haven't seen it, so here is a British Library link with enlarged textures of various animal skins: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. And a more technical article on Dead Sea Scroll materials: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.   Most certain plant ID's? Posted by: Koen G - 30-12-2018, 05:52 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (95) Following the water lily thread, I wondered: which plants in the VM can be identified with an above average degree of certainty and consensus? Note that I don't say complete certainty and consensus since both are unlikely. Also, I don't mean specific subspecies (that's not the right question to ask) just general plant type. Let's say as specific as possible without straying too far into "maybe" territory.  See Marco's post You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for the origins of some additions. Edited list so far (proposals where there appears to be especially great agreement are in bold): f1v Belladonna, Deadly nightshade f2r Centaurea (subspecies uncertain: knapweed, cornflower...) f2v Water lily f5r paris quadrifolia  f6v Ricinus (castor oil plant)  f9v Viola  f16r Cannabis  f17v tamus (dioscorea) f18r Calendula / Mountain aster  f18v Malva (JKP) f21r Polygonum Aviculare, a Herniaria species or similar plant. The drawing is broadly considered lifelike, but there are too many plants that look similar. See You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. f23r veronica  f25v plantago  f26r Sedum telephium (JKP) f32r Prunella  f35v Oak (but the climbing plant remains unclear)  f43v Teasel (right) f49r Cuscuta (JKP)  f65v chamomile    [split] f2v plant ID Posted by: bi3mw - 26-12-2018, 02:18 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (48) Thanks @JKP, that was fast. The leaf shape is similar to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in the VMS (although the leaf is shown the other way round). Another name for Newfare is nenufar (Seeblomen). But they are presented differently in other manuscripts. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - GW 12270,  Latin herbal with German synonyms, Passau, Anonym, Herbarius, Patavie, 1485,  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Edit: Another spelling for Nenufar is Nenuphar. An older spelling for Seeblome is sêbluome (Mhd).   The first palaeographers to assert the Ms is in a humanist script? Posted by: Beatrice - 25-12-2018, 08:20 PM - Forum: Codicology and Paleography - Replies (24) Hello everyone I am new here and I would like to ask you  who were the first palaeographers to assert that the Ms is written in a humanist script. Does any member from this forum know something about that? Is there any paper about it? I have been re-reading An Elegant Enigma by Mary D'Imperio as well as  Zandbergen's site. But I have not found  any palaeographer's name or an expert on Historiography and its techniques. Only Helmut Lehmann-Haupt, Consultant to H.P. Kraus, suggested that "[...] palaeographically speaking, Italy is a likely country of origin" (p.7)   Nothing else.  Thanks.   Implications of the continuity of Currier "languages" Posted by: MarcoP - 20-12-2018, 10:46 AM - Forum: Analysis of the text - Replies (21) Several researchers have pointed out that the features underlying Currier's A and B "languages" do not form two separated sets, but spread over a continuous range. For instance, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. represents pages on the basis of word frequencies: Donald used Principal Component Analysis (PCA) to reduce the number of dimensions from the long raw vectors to plottable 2d points.   curr1.jpg (Size: 85.9 KB / Downloads: 362) Currier A (green), Currier B (red), or uncertain (black). [I have trimmed the image and made it more contrasted] Similar results are presented by You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. The continuity between the two "languages" appears both in character-based and word-based analyses (this plot is by Sarah Goslee).   voynich1-charABcode.png (Size: 26.14 KB / Downloads: 363) Researchers have drawn different conclusions from this evidence: Donald Fisk Wrote:...Prescott Currier reported in Papers on the Voynich Manuscript that the text is in two separate languages or dialects, now commonly referred to as Currier A and Currier B. It will be shown here that this distinction is somewhat fuzzy. There are differences (see "A Principal Component Analysis of the Voynich Manuscript Words"), but these can be explained more simply by differences in the text's subject matter. Rene Zandbergen Wrote:When Currier identified his languages A and B, he did this on the basis of the different statistics of the initial herbal pages in the MS [...]. It is clear that these have distinct properties - the clouds do not overlap. He also checked the other pages, and noted more variations, but his criteria for distinguishing the languages did not allow him to see that the overall statistics demonstrate that there is a continuum, and the other (not herbal) pages actually 'bridge the gap'. This does not demonstrate that the text is meaningful, or that the text variations are caused by different subject matter (as suggested in by Montemurro and Zanette). If that were the case, the difference between herbal A and herbal B should not exist. The cause of the (statistical) language variation is still unexplained. As always, things are puzzling. I understand that both points of view have their value. Let's speculate What are the implications of these findings? What the reasons for the observed phenomena can be? Four half-men awkwardly holding hands inside four concentric bands. Posted by: Koen G - 17-12-2018, 09:13 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (30) Diane recently pointed me towards a potentially relevant manuscript: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.  The page I linked above shows a diagram which struck me as familiar, similar to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . It is best seen in the full version, but I'll include an image:   Naamloos-3.jpg (Size: 316.85 KB / Downloads: 231) In the Madrid MS, all four men are facing front and holding hands in a strange way. There is also no text in the diagram itself. But I found the similarities with the VM circle too great to ignore. In both diagrams there are four concentric bands surrounding the four men. The centre is split in four (with lines or text) assigning each man his quarter segment. There's also divisions in the bands, although in the VM these are fewer. Likely someone with greater knowledge and skills than mine will be able to tell us what exactly this diagram represents (there's an accompanying text in the MS). I vaguely recall that something like this may have been posted before but wasn't able to find it. Also, on the left page there's a few more elements that recall of the VM drawings. These are more likely to be coincidences, but I will include them anyway. I feel much more confident about the relevance of the four-men diagram, but since these elements are on the page right next to it they may be worth noting.   Naamloos-10.jpg (Size: 115.34 KB / Downloads: 224) First Previous Next Last