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| New video about Sunflowers |
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Posted by: Koen G - 15-04-2025, 03:52 PM - Forum: News
- Replies (7)
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I just published a new video, this time about some key developments in the history of Voynich research. Ever wondered what the Beinecke lists their most famous early 15th century manuscript as a 16th century one? It's all here:
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| VMS f65r: a "spiked" plant |
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Posted by: Stefan Wirtz_2 - 15-04-2025, 02:48 PM - Forum: Imagery
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As remarked several times already by others, this full plant drawing is rather unique as it shows just three words.
The last word alag = alayae or alaye ( You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , first comment)
comes close to today's russian алыи ("alyy"), which means "Scarlet" (the desease).
Most slavic languages are using somehow adapted `scarlet´ in vocabulary, but some, like Russian, have own descriptions for it which may be old enough to appear in VMS.
I have reason to assume the three vords mean "effective against scarlet".
Medieval herbal treatment suggestions were thyme, sage and yellow avens and surely some more.
This plant is surely not thyme or sage.
But yellow avens, Geum urbanum or maybe Geum aleppicum, are quite good-looking here, enough images at the internet. Both are often plagued by gall wasps, which produce thickened root stems.
Creeping avens (Geum reptans) produces networking roots with several knots, but they look still different from drawing.
Yes, "these roots": the pictured roots are not as nice and fitting as Filipendula, but that plant is not on f65v.
The draftsman made 2 mistakes: outer blossom leafs, the "spikes", should be rotated a bit, they are not exactly behind an inner blossom leaf when their number is not higher than 5.
Otherwise I understood that the outer leafs are always limited to 5, while inner leafs may be more than 5. Drawing shows some 6+6 combinations.
Following is creeping avens, the left blossom is still flowering, all other began fruiting.
So this is my suggestion for 65r.
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| Generally about proposed solutions |
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Posted by: ReneZ - 15-04-2025, 08:05 AM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (23)
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There's this (surprisingly) long thread about a new proposed solution. I don't want to make it even longer, and I agree it is better to wait until there is some tangible public information.
A few thoughts, which are not just valid for this case.
In my opinion it is completely fair if someone doesn't want to share his/her work until it is completed, or with some safeguard against copying. The risk is real. Just ask people who is the brain behind Tesla.... The person with the best access to publicity will be remembered.
On the other hand, I don't think it is useful to write in a forum with hundreds(?) of members that one has the solution, if one has no intention of sharing it.
Many reading here will remember the case of Gerard Cheshire. He said he found the solution in two weeks. He was completely certain that he was right. He could never be convinced that he was wrong, even when everybody tried to point it out to him. Very similar case, but most of that discussion took place after he shared the principles of his solution in some papers.
I have been asked many times to comment on proposed solutions. In the majority of cases, the person was not asking for my opinion or advice, but was just looking for a confirmation that he/she was right. When my feedback was not this confirmation, it was rejected, usually in relatively unfriendly terms. Not always though! There were some completely reasonable exceptions. Usually, I had to promise (or sign for) discretion.
About the probability that a proposed solution from someone not familiar with most of the previous analyses is right: I would put this generously at 10**-6 (1E-6). It should be lower, but smaller numbers become too difficult to argue.
That's what we are talking about here. (The probability that Koen's analysis is correct is well over 50%, without having seen it of course).
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| f85v and 86(part): using the Voynich Map |
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Posted by: Stefan Wirtz_2 - 14-04-2025, 02:44 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (33)
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This is my variant of reading the map, hope you like it.
I found a variant of putting this map "onto one corner" at another source and made my own variant of it. This turns out to be the only way of correctly dealing with geographics.
I never would have used the map "balancing on a corner" otherwise. My understanding of the TO-map here was too rigid as it is not functioning as a compass for the map.
I did not care also for the 2 suns, which are the cornerposts of sunrise and sunset and clearly define the east and west tips of whole map.
I think the main problem here is to imagine any fortress or castle of western, explicitely Genuese or closely related design, being south of Asian regions or next to deserts - the more one is trying to locate the "castle" into the South-East, the bigger this problem will be.
Otherwise are Constantinople and Trapezunt some of those rare examples of a constellation were european-stamped cities did exist in oriental or middle-east environments. The Map is showing these.
Meanwhile, central-asian influence reached deeply into eastern europe. The Principality of Lithuania was stretched to west black sea coast, struggled with the Mongolian, but built relationships with Crimean Chanat. Principality of Moscow even submitted to Mongolians and had no control over south ukrainian territories. Several Genuese and Venetian outposts seamed all relevant coasts.
Central-asian dominance was much more relevant for Europe than the remains of Latin-Roman culture, so there were constellations of far-reaching contacts and strange neighborhoods.
I am setting the "castle" into the south corner.
The Map is truly not a geographical one, so I considered it as a Graph with knots, were the links between knots do NOT represent their lengths, just the connections.
These links are drawn as streets in the most cases: from (1) to (2) seems to be a narrow way, also from (2) to (T3). (T3) and (4) are connected by a street with a swallowtail wall at one side, which would be north-west flanking here. (4) to (T5) shows a really strange thing instead of a road.
(6) is linked to (T7) even with a double street, separated by a tower, uniting and being separated again by another building until the target. From (T7) leads again a street to (9), flanked by walls on both sides and these exotic "hanging" houses. (8) is not connected.
Only the "way" between (T5) and (6) looks different:
winding as a river. At this spot I will use the only word of Voynichese in this post later.
Someone wrote that the bluish roundel (marked with (1) here) might be a travel through to Black Sea, this journey starts with it for reasons i will show at last.
As a reference, this map of 1736 is most useful, I will refer to it as R1 from now on:
it mainly shows the military setttings of Russians who were slowly advancing against remaining Nogaians and the Crimea. But more important are some geographical details here which the Vms Map only provides at some spectacular points.
Even though this R1 map is ~300 years away from us and 300years later than the Vms map, it will be helpful enough.
Sailing to Black Sea's or Asow Sea's north shores, there will be found just Otchakov, Crimea, Mius, Asow and Tanais.
No Odessa, no Cherson/Dnjepr, no Mariupol, no Sewastopol of course...
Travelling to Black Sea to Northwest may lead to Otchakov or something else near the Djnepr, so I've set (2) to this region. Otchakov is a very old foundation and is still serving as military base, which may has been it's role since ancient times.
This is the reason why I concentrated onto this point:
First word reads "erekopkal", with is close to Perekop, the entrance to Crimea peninsula.
The crimtatarian name for it is Or Qapi, VMS writer obviously stayed closer to this spelling, so I took the freedom
to add a P to erekop.
I forced myself to read VMS o's as e's (which they are), but you will see the crimtatarian or(o)qapi easiest by using the P as an kyrillic R and the 8 as a K.
edit: I forget to explain the ending, (P)erekopkal means "Perekopean" and does not relate to town itself, but to the Bay east of Perekop land narrow. This kind of ending occurs quite often with VMS words.
The second word here is "Kasiopikya" or "Kasiopigya", which means without much translation "Kassiopeia"(the stars in the North).
"Perekop in the North" induces that all locations below are at Crimea or the Black Sea.
Just before Vms era, Vytautas of Lithuania has built a fortress there -- unfortunately there seem to be no remains of medieval character.
The imagery of (2) shows not really a fortress, but more of a light building, so there is no real proof for an exact position. I will return to this place later.
From (2) the course leads to North-East and (T3). I can assume that this is a short travel distance. (T3) is not bound to a town, village, harbour or any other solid place, as (T3), (T5) and (T7) have one thing in common:
they are tents.
Details of (T3), (T5) and (a bit effortlessly) (T7) are revealing the tied-down ropes and even the smokeholes at the tops. We are looking on top of tents in mongolian/tartarian style, which stayed long enough as garrison camps to be mapped in Vms, but left no historical margins in landscape.
The next stage of this travel did this even more:
this is Oleshky Sands, the biggest desert of Europe, even though it is located next to one of the greatest rivers (satellite picture/Apple Maps)
In R1 map it would be located just north of the fortress in the defence line for Kinburn peninsula. There are also several small rivers east of Dnjepr shore, two of them neighboring Oleshky Sands, which surely existed 600 years ago.
Vms map honors this unique landmark in a markless landscape with the roundel (4), the way to it is a solid street with a wall to northwest -- this line is a frontier.
At (4) the course of travel changes it's heading to east.
At this moment we can be aware of visiting the northern parts of Crimean Chanat. This will continue until (8).
East of Oleshky, right north of Perekop, we find this strange thing and thereby another landmark (image of Apple Maps):
As I understood this is a kind of saline well of naturel sourcing, it is watering to southeast into the inner sea of Crimea.
This severly reminds of that funny link of Vms between (4) and (T5) and looks like a natural compass, so I take this as confirmation of travel course.
(T5) is located at the end of this river-like "way". A moment to read with just 3 letters of TO-Voynichese I had introduced earlier. Both upper words are still a compettiion, "gg22…" will be a struggle.
But the third word "8al8a2" is reading "Kalka(t)".
The Kalka river is known by a pivoting fight 200 years before the Vms, the battle of Kalka between Mongols and Kievan Rus'. Today there are existing 2 rivers, Kalkich and Kalmius, and it is unclear which one is the former "Kalka"; thats not quite a difference, as both join just before mouthing into Asow sea.
A look to R1 map shows: there is a "Kalce" and a "Kalmiusse" noted, so I take Kalce as Kalka here. Kalka flows from west-north-west to east-south-east so the way of this river continues the path to east.
By the way, "Kal" is not a creation of Voynichese, this means "dirt" or "mud" in some slavic languages -- Kalchik means "dirty river", the core of all three names comes probably from eroding the black soil of Ukraine.
Together with "Perekop", this defined the regional span of VMS map.
Where Kalmius and Kalchik meet is the location of todays Mariupol. This city was founded end of 18th century upon the rest of a crimtatarian tent camp named Kalmius; no doubt this was completely driven down the river during the campaign of the russians years before.
(T6) is a strange location: apart from all other heavily commented roundels, this one has just 1 word in his inner circle. The symbols of imaging are tending towards "water", so this might be Asov also, but could be the empty location of Mariupol. Today this is an industry city, there is no option of imagining this location around 1400AD.
Funny enough, here are indeed 2 way of travelling back to Crimea: one leads back at the coast to it (and is breaking the general direction of going southwest from (6) to (T7) a bit), the second way leads to this target via Kuban/Kertch. Nethertheless, (T7) may be located on eastern Crimea again.
Right here we can resume that Vms is a travel map to all cornerstones of the Crimean Chanat.
Regarding this, (8) is the center of this Empire, meaning that is Qufut Kale or Bakhchassaray in it's foundation years (isnt that a tent cloth above these pillars or towers?). Qufut Kale was given up soon, Bakhchassaray is still mentioned 1736 in R1. The capital is linked to (T3,T5,T7) and the "Black Sea", and only to these, by "streams"
These may be supplies, food, soldiers, money, orders, prayers, whatever -- but surely no Volcano eruptions. This is the only abstract part in whole map: all other items are quite real.
(9) is the remaining highlight, it is also mentioned in R1, already under the name "Makura" -- it had different names before.
(9), "the castle" appears to be Fortress Mangup, for a short time during Vms period known as "Theodoro", capital of Principality Theodoro. It's ancient name was "Doro". (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
Mangup lies southwest of Bakhchassaray/Qufut Kale, upon this claw-like hill:
Please watch high resolution pictures at this source below, it is worthy it:
(all pictures from source: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. )
Sagqs, Public domain, via Wikimedia Commons
Mangup Citadel is located in east of the fortification:
The "fingers" of Mangups natural fortress resembled?
White ridges of Mangups southside.
Mangup had 2 wells and a maingate at west of fortress, nr.1 +2 at sign:
I could not find out what this structure is, but we know it already:
Leaving Mangup heading north to (2), foto is Google Streetview: these cliffs are blue waves.
There is a cave system within the northeast finger of Mangup:
Leaving Mangup to Northwest may even lead to forests and hills west of Bakhchassaray and further to Perekop and the next knots. (1) may show these hills and forests alternatively, but whithin the circle seem several bays to be drawn, so it is most probably the waterway.
(2) may also be located south of Dnjepr mouth since I am not sure about the extension of Crimean Chanat during it's early years.
The Vms Map and at least the "herbs" section seem to be a kind of Almanach made for educational either to instruct traders for their ways and best goods, or for medical staff to prepare garrison visits.
What are the conclusions of Vms Map, and what are not?
- the number of details urgently suggests the "castle" is Mangup/Theodoro
- all nomadic positions and No.6 probably completely dispeared without any archaeological trace
- in Bakkchassararay and Oshtakiv me be some traces of ~1460AD remained
- there is no political or geographical link to western Europe, apart from some fortress designs
- the very present Genuese locations are not mentioned, but this does not exclude them from being the producer of this map ("mapping the neighors")
- there are no religious contents
- there is no hint that Voynichese alphabet or language is anyhow related to crimtatarian language, but this is not excluding them from being the producer of this map ("mapping ourselves and the closest neighbor")
- Vms map shows Mangup most detailed; this does not induce that they were the producers of this map, but makes it more probable.
- revealing the Vms Map as a mainframe of upcoming Crimean Chanat does not limit the whole manuscript to Crimea or even the map drawn there at all-- production of Vms has happened somewhere between Ladoga Sea and Black Sea, not necessarily on the peninsula.
- Mangup East citadel was ready in the 1460ies earliest, but is imaged in the Map; Pr. of Theodoro got lost at 1475 by turkish-ottoman invasion. Seeing the manuscript as dominated by kyrillic and slavic components, it is possibly not produced under turkish occupation after 1475 upon Crimea and a production somewhere else may have been senseless and somehow nostalgic also. This tightens the time frame for production to a few years before 1475AD.
- the bases of Voynich alphabet and language are NOT Latin
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| Voynich Decoded |
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Posted by: Kris1212 - 12-04-2025, 03:20 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (100)
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New here, just came her to find some info, I'm confident I have decoded it, it works across every section and every paragraph...it's so simple that I can't share any of it, I know that sounds mad but it's true, I've emailed the university but is there anyone else I should contact? Also can someone point me to the full up to date transcription from Takeshi Takahashi as I want to make sure the EVA I'm working from is correct. Thanks
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| Vords and Images |
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Posted by: Dobri - 11-04-2025, 08:11 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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What if the meaning (if any) of some vords could be deduced by observing them several times next to images depicting similar concepts in distinct folios?
For example, the vord root dairol can be found 4 times as follows:
- podairol in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (an overhead view of a flower in a flowering plant);
- dairol in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (an overhead reference sheet of a person's head); and
- ydairol and dairoldy in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (two overhead views of bathing nymphs).
Therefore, one could possibly interpret the meaning of dairol as an overhead view, or one of its multiple synonyms like aerial view, bird's eye view, elevated view, etc.
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