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Is f85v3 about air?

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• Is f85v3 about air?

• Is f85v3 about air?

  Rafal > 07-12-2025, 01:51 PM

  I don't know if this reference was already discussed. You guys, have seen everything  
  
  Compare 
  
  f85v3
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  and
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  Are these pictures similar?
  If yes then would you say that f85v3 is about the element of air? We have clouds and birds and guys dropping rain.
  And my reference seems to be from late 1500s or 1600s. Do you know earlier similar works?
  
  And the last question - what is the animal in my picture? Chameleon? How he is related to air then?
  
  Could the famous catoblepas/pangolin/armadillo be related to him? He also seems sitting on some cloud.
  

• RE: Is f85v3 about air?

  nablator > 07-12-2025, 05:08 PM

  Please upload the images from i.ibb.co on the forum, they are displayed as blue rectangles with white text for me:
  imgbb.com
  uploading this
  content requires
  registration

• RE: Is f85v3 about air?

  Rafal > 07-12-2025, 06:24 PM

  Ups, sorry, it worked when I uploaded it. I'll try another way:

• RE: Is f85v3 about air?

  Rafal > 07-12-2025, 06:43 PM

  And the beast indeed seems to be chameleon:
  
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  The chameleon does not have a single color, but can change the color of its skin to match its surroundings to escape detection. The only colors it cannot take on are red and white.
  The chameleon is sometimes used as the symbolic animal representing the element air. This is probably based on several sources saying that the chameleon does not eat or drink but takes all its nourishment from the air (see Source tab).

• RE: Is f85v3 about air?

  Rafal > 08-12-2025, 12:27 PM

  Okay, the thread didn't catch on. It happens. 
  
  So I will share some my loose thoughts now. Maybe someone will find them helpful
  
  - I believe f86v3 may show air as one of 4 classic elements, just like my reference.
  
  - my reference was done probably by guy called Adriaen Collaert. He did several series of these 4 elements. You can see another set here:
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  - f86v3 is crudely drawn but it contains the same stuff - clouds, birds and naked guys (possibly gods of winds). The guys are a bit hidden
  but I pointed to them with red arrows
  
  - there seems to be rain falling from the clouds and the rain is falling to the Earth:
  
  
  - the Earth is very faintly drawn, almost invisible. The picture seems unfinished. But in the centre there is a circle divided to three parts in a stereotypical
  way how Earth was depicted:
  
  
  - the nude gods of winds are actually quite weird for medieval art
  They were quite common after Renessaince which rediscovered antiquity. But in Medieval Ages such imagery would be perceived as pagan, anti-Christian and frowned upon. So Voynich Manuscript feels a bit anachronistic here. Please argue if you think otherwise.
  
  - I discovered for myself that chameleon is linked to air and appears in air element pictures. As I have written above this make the creature from 80v being a chameleon possible. He seems to sit on some cloud. He doesn't resemble a real chameleon but well, check how Scorpio in VM looks like    He actually may have some "wooly" fur that resembles sheep fur ... or clouds
  
  - the "bubbly tissue" which appeas on several pages is clouds It wasn't clear for me if it isn't some organic tissue for example:
  
  
  Any comments?

• RE: Is f85v3 about air?

  nablator > 08-12-2025, 01:05 PM

  (08-12-2025, 12:27 PM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Any comments?

  
  I like it.
  
  My understanding, that I posted before, is that we are seeing quite obvious movements (flows) and transformations in the cycle of water (that was a mystery at the time) and in the medieval mind nothing moves unless it is pushed (according to Aristotle's law of motion), so there just had to be some invisible beings in action, whether they were seen as allegories for the forces of nature or actual beings. The ambiguity was used as an excuse to re-vitalize Pagan mythology that became quite popular in the Renaissance. It's not anachronistic at all, inserting Pagan references everywhere was all the rage, see Christine de Pizan for an example of writing contemporary with the C14 date of the VMS.
  
  There is nothing biological in Q13, it's all about the circulation of air and water, and their elemental transformations.
  
  For f86v3 and some of the pools in Q13 there are possible links to alchemy, again it's about the transformation of liquids: distillation, condensation, etc. Alchemy in the 15th century and earlier was all about the wet way, the dry way became popular later. The dry/wet/hot/cold qualities of everything were very important in medieval science, mentioned on the first line in medicinal herbals. Radical humidity, a forgotten medieval concept, was used in medicine as well as alchemy. Knowing the actual medieval concepts and the associated illustrations is very useful. The concept of energy, that you see thrown around in interpretations of the VMS, for example, is completely anachronistic.
  
  The description of the chameleon as the only animal that neither eats nor drinks, and has no other food than air comes from Pliny's Historia naturalis, the leading authority in medieval Europe on a wide range of subjects. Most of Europe had never seen a chameleon: according to this map, it lives in the most southern parts of Europe and in northern Africa. No idea if the geographic distribution was the same in the 15th century. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  I don't know if there are any 15th century illustrations. These are older (13th century): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  In this article, the earliest is dated 1534:
  

  Google translate Wrote:To create the 1534 illustration (fig. 1), the artist had to follow Pliny's description as faithfully as possible, thereby proving that he had never seen the animal: in his depiction, the chameleon becomes a small monster with a scaly fish-like body, long, stiff legs with sharp claws, a pig's head, and a bizarrely spiraled tail. In this last instance, it is clear that the illustrator misinterpreted Pliny's comparison to a coiled viper's tail.

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  Andreae Alciati Emblematum libellus (1534) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Note the scaly body.
  
  

  Quote:{51.} L  Africa almost alone does not produce stags, but Africa also has the chameleon, although India produces it in greater numbers. Its shape and size were those of a lizard, were not the legs straight and longer. The flanks are joined on to the belly as in fishes, and the spine projects in a similar manner. [121] It has a snout not unlike a pig's, considering its small size, a very long tail that tapers towards the end and curls in coils like a viper, and crooked talons; it moves rather slowly like a tortoise and has a rough body like a crocodile's, and eyes in a hollow recess, close together and very large and of the same colours as its body. It never shuts its eyes, and looks round not by moving the pupil but by turning the whole eye. [122] It holds itself erect with its mouth always wide open, and it is the only animal that does not live on food or drink or anything else but the nutriment that it derives from the air, with a gape that is almost terrifying, but otherwise it is harmless. And it is more remarkable for the nature of its colouring, since it constantly changes the hue of its eyes and tail and whole body and always makes it the colour with which it is in closest contact, except red and white. When dead it is of a pallid colour. It has flesh on the head and jaws and at the junction tail in a rather scanty amount, and nowhere else in the whole body; blood in the heart and around the eyes only; its vital parts contain no spleen. It hibernates like a lizard in the winter months.

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• RE: Is f85v3 about air?

  Rafal > 08-12-2025, 02:57 PM

  Are you able to give some links to the illustrated works of Christine de Pizan which show wind gods as naked men?
  
  4 elements were of course present in the medieval works but I believe they were usually presented in much more schematic, totally non-erotic way:
  
  

• RE: Is f85v3 about air?

  nablator > 08-12-2025, 05:32 PM

  (08-12-2025, 02:57 PM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Are you able to give some links to the illustrated works of Christine de Pizan which show wind gods as naked men?

  
  Wind gods, maybe, ... 4 winds associated to 4 gods, etc. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Found one: Zephyrus, god of the west wind.
  
  Le livre du chemin de long estude (1402):
  

  Quote:Si pensez quel plaisir ce estoit
  De zephirus qui lors vantoit
  Qui es arbres rendoit doulx son

  
  The nine Muses (nine goddesses) with Pegasus are a clear reference to a specific Greek mythological story.
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  I'm sure there are other references to Greco-Roman mythology.

• RE: Is f85v3 about air?

  R. Sale > 08-12-2025, 10:40 PM

  Chameleon is interesting choice. Looking at the bestiary illustrations, it really is a catch-all category. Everything from a serpent with two legs to a mostly camel, slightly lion hybrid. It variously states that the artist had never seen a chameleon, so pretty much anything goes. The only way to tell that it is a chameleon is that it is labeled as such.
  
  Is that how it is in the VMs. Is this an "anything"? Is it that bad? - that ambiguous? = Viewer's choice.
  
  Let's say that it is and go to part two. Long misnomered, the heraldic, nebuly line offers fewer choices. The interpretation is either valid or invalid. If it is valid, it is a cosmic boundary.
  
  Taking the nebuly lines of the VMs as a version of a cloud-band type of cosmic boundary, the primary choice for the interpretation of the 'critter', from a 1400-1450 perspective, would be an Agnus Dei - or a chameleon. Despite the ambiguity-induced pareidolia, it does give off certain sheepish, headless fleece-ish sort of vibes.
  
  Agnus Dei illustrations are frequently accompanied by artistic representations of cosmic boundaries of various designs. I did not see any chameleons associated nebuly lines, cloud bands, or cosmic boundaries.
  
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  As may be noted in the perennial discussion, the purpose of the vertical markings remained unresolved until the discovery of BNF Fr. 13096 <JKP>. This example is chosen for its structure - having the cosmic boundary *between* the lamb and the droplets of blood. The unity of all three parts helps confirm the Agnus Dei interpretation.
  
  It was further proposed <Koen> that if the Agnus Dei was a representation of Christ, the woman directly below might be seen as Ecclesia with a ring, representing Christ's marriage to the Church.
  
  While the representation may look a bit weird [Anything goes.], the ideological perspective is certainly not out of place in a proposed medieval reconstruction. At the same time, the artist has also "hidden" a representation of the nine Muses in a half-arcaded tub. There's no problem seeing it. The problem is accepting it as *non-random*! In other words, it's been done on purpose by an artist familiar with the relevant information. And that is where the gap occurs, because to start with, we are generally not functionally familiar with that same, medieval information.

• RE: Is f85v3 about air?

  Rafal > 10-12-2025, 12:24 PM

  Quote:I'm sure there are other references to

  Greco-Roman mythology.
  
  I did some more research on wind gods and ancient references in medieval manuscripts.
  
  It actually expanded my horizons. I was taught at school that in medieval ages ancient heritage was completely forgotten and was only rediscovered in Renessaince when refugees from Constantinople which had fallen to Muslims reached Western Europe and brought the ancient ideas.
  
  It wasn't that simple.
  
  References to ancient, pagan Graeco-Roman heritage existed in medieval manuscripts:
  
  Hercules slaying Cerberus, and Theseus and Pirithous battling demons.
  
  
  On the other hand they were rare. For one picture with pagan content there were probably 50 pictures with Christian content.
  
  I made some search for wind gods in medieval books.
  I wasn't able to find "full body [b]naked wind gods[/b]". The closest thing were heads blowing air:
  
  
  It looks like artists became bolder only in Renessaince, going with "full frontal nudity"  
  
  So to sum it up, I would say that Voynich imagery of supposed wind gods is quite unusual and brave for early 1400s but still possible in theory.
  Don't know if it helps with anything 
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