+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Analysis of the text (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-41.html)
+--- Thread: F70v2 and autocitation (/thread-5094.html)
F70v2 and autocitation - Rafal - 02-12-2025
Something weird (or maybe not weird at all) is going at f70v2 (Pisces zodiac sign)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
otar am otaral otalar otalam otolal
For me it is a very strong case for autocitation hypothesis suggested by Torsten Timm. The scribe is altering the same word and making a gibberish.
It such a case attempts to identify the star (like Alrescha from Pisces constellation) will be futile.
Would you have another explanations?
RE: F70v2 and autocitation - oshfdk - 02-12-2025
Easily. A sequence of numerals. A sequence of dates. A sorted sequence of any kind. This has been discussed a few times I think, the latest I can remember is this:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: F70v2 and autocitation - Rafal - 02-12-2025
Ah, I missed it.
But how would you explain that otalam also seems to be a name of some plant root?
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Does the supposed numeral also means carrot, parsley or horseradish?
RE: F70v2 and autocitation - oshfdk - 02-12-2025
(02-12-2025, 12:43 PM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Does the supposed numeral also means carrot, parsley or horseradish?
This could be root number XVII or the root for the Friday stew. Or the famous legendary root of October 12 1410. I have no idea, but this doesn't have to be the name of the plant. Alternatively, if this is the name of the plant, this could be the root of xiv plant, that just happens to be spelled the same as a Roman numeral. Endless possibilities really.
RE: F70v2 and autocitation - Mark Knowles - 02-12-2025
(02-12-2025, 11:50 AM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Something weird (or maybe not weird at all) is going at f70v2 (Pisces zodiac sign)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
otar am otaral otalar otalam otolal
For me it is a very strong case for autocitation hypothesis suggested by Torsten Timm. The scribe is altering the same word and making a gibberish.
It such a case attempts to identify the star (like Alrescha from Pisces constellation) will be futile.
Would you have another explanations?
There are lots of strong cases for the autocitation hypothesis and I think many words were generated in that kind of way. However, from my perspective and where I think I differ from Torsten Timm's is that I don't think all words were or can be generated in such a way. To repeat my position, I think many null filler words were generated in such all way(though some were just produced from standard null word templates), but real words were not produced like this.
(02-12-2025, 12:43 PM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Ah, I missed it.
But how would you explain that otalam also seems to be a name of some plant root?
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Does the supposed numeral also means carrot, parsley or horseradish?
I agree with you. The numeral theory could work in one or two cases, but overall the idea that these represent numerals doesn't seem to hold up. I conclude as I have in the past that some words must be null or meaningless.
RE: F70v2 and autocitation - Jorge_Stolfi - 02-12-2025
(02-12-2025, 02:56 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The numeral theory could work in one or two cases, but overall the idea that these represent numerals doesn't seem to hold up.
Both the Greek and the Romans denoted numerals with letters that were also used to write the language. (And the custom of capitalizing Roman numerals is a modern thing.)
For no reason at all, here are the names of the planets in modern Vietnamese:
- Mercury thủy ngân
- Venus sao kim
- Mars sao hoả
- Jupiter sao mộc
- Saturn sao thổ
- Uranus sao thiên vương (I guess it literally means "Star of the God of Heavens"?)
- Neptune sao hải vương ("Star of the God of the Sea"?)
Here "sao" means "star".
In Mandarin the names are in reverse order,
- Mercury 水星 shuǐxīng (Water Star)
- Venus 金星 jīnxīng (Gold Star)
- Mars 火星 huǒxīng (Fire Star)
- Jupiter 木星 mùxīng (Wood Star)
- Saturn 土星 tǔxīng (Earth Star)
- Uranus 天王星 tiānwángxīng (King of Heaven Star)
- Neptune 海王星 hǎiwángxīng (King of the Sea Star)
- Pluto 冥王星 míngwángxīng (King of Hell Star)
All the best, --stolfi
RE: F70v2 and autocitation - Mark Knowles - 02-12-2025
(02-12-2025, 03:31 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(02-12-2025, 02:56 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The numeral theory could work in one or two cases, but overall the idea that these represent numerals doesn't seem to hold up.
Both the Greek and the Romans denoted numerals with letters that were also used to write the language. (And the custom of capitalizing Roman numerals is a modern thing.)
And in fact I think that is what happens in the Voynich, see folio 57v. The third circle from the centre has a four times repeating series of symbols that I think represent numerals and many of these symbols are common characters in Voynichese.
However, I don’t think this is what is happening in the cases that Rafal points to. I think they are simply null words as I have stated.
RE: F70v2 and autocitation - ReneZ - 03-12-2025
(02-12-2025, 11:50 AM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Something weird (or maybe not weird at all) is going at f70v2 (Pisces zodiac sign)
There is also You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..