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Welcome, Guest You have to register before you can post on our site. Username/Email:    Password    Remember me Search Forums (Advanced Search) Online Users There are currently 304 online users. » 2 Member(s) | 300 Guest(s) Bing, Google, luiscrassus Latest Threads Cosmic Comparison Theory Forum: Theories & Solutions Last Post: ReneZ 10 minutes ago » Replies: 3 » Views: 157 The VMS as a possible cha... Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: oshfdk 5 hours ago » Replies: 9 » Views: 344 Exact replica of VM icono... Forum: Imagery Last Post: R. Sale 11 hours ago » Replies: 3 » Views: 172 The cross and the presenc... Forum: Imagery Last Post: MarcoP Yesterday, 05:07 PM » Replies: 44 » Views: 27,089 Voynich Decoded Forum: Theories & Solutions Last Post: Kris1212 Yesterday, 03:43 PM » Replies: 152 » Views: 14,666 The quest for Anchiton Forum: Provenance & history Last Post: MarcoP Yesterday, 10:28 AM » Replies: 79 » Views: 46,207 I've deciphered the Voyni... Forum: Theories & Solutions Last Post: Koen G 20-07-2025, 08:14 PM » Replies: 120 » Views: 1,601 Origin of the Shield Shap... Forum: Imagery Last Post: Ruby Novacna 20-07-2025, 04:50 PM » Replies: 104 » Views: 11,380 It cannot be a language -... Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: Kendiyas 20-07-2025, 03:24 PM » Replies: 11 » Views: 2,727 Giving Pages Depth: A Vis... Forum: Imagery Last Post: Kendiyas 20-07-2025, 12:45 AM » Replies: 6 » Views: 182

f70v2 Circular Pattern and Greek Pottery Border Designs Posted by: Sam G - 17-07-2016, 02:52 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (7) There's a certain similarity between the design found around the central roundel on f70v2 (Pisces/March) and a border design commonly found on classical Greek pottery.  Here's a comparison:   VMS and Greek Pottery Border Design.jpg (Size: 308.5 KB / Downloads: 179) It's not an exact match of course, but in both cases we see small segments with a "four way" division separated by segments of 2-3 times their width containing "zigzag" patterns.  It's also not hard to imagine that the simpler zigzag patterns we see in the VMS could have arisen from the "stepped meander" patterns of the Greek design via several generations of imprecise copying. Of course, the resemblance could be completely coincidental, so what I'd like to know is if anyone knows of other patterns similar to the one found in the VMS, especially if there are any in the medieval Latin manuscript tradition.   The semy of roundels Posted by: R. Sale - 16-07-2016, 12:18 AM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (1) The outer ring of tubs on VMs Pisces not only contains a series of patterns that correspond to standard heraldic designs, but a few of them have potential historical connections. Papelonny - the butterfly's wing- and gurges - the whirlpool - are two examples. Now something interesting has turned up in regard to the semy of roundels. In the VMs Pisces illustration, the example is seen as careless and colorless. There is no indication of tincture for either the shield or the roundels. So it seemed there was no way to a solution. Or to put it another way, just look - and whatever you find - that's it. And even though that suggestion was meant to be sarcastic, it might also be good advice. There are only two criteria. Match the heraldic definition and try to stay historically prior to the VMs parchment dates - as much as possible. I have found only one candidate with the correct heraldic pattern, and it also matches with good chronology, quite surprising actually. The blazon is 'gules, a semy of roundels, or'. Gold circles on a red background generally found in staggered rows - like the old French insignia that was a semy of fleur-de-lis.  It turns out that this insignia, bezanty on red, is that of Alan la Zouche (1205-1270). He was a Norman Englishman and was a loyalist in England's historical Barons Revolt.  And who was the papal legate to England at the resolution of those difficulties???  Indeed it was Ottobuono Fieschi!! And this is nothing more and nothing less than another separate and independent connection to the history of the Genoese popes based on heraldry in the VMs. Can it really be another coincidence?? Given the general nature of the VMs illustration, other potential interpretations are certainly possible. If there are, let's see them. . f75r as the Caspian and Aral Seas Posted by: Linda - 12-07-2016, 11:17 AM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (7) For your consideration, here are some matches I see between the imagery on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the Caspian and Aral Seas. 1. The general shape of the Caspian Sea area matches quite well. Not necessarily the water line, but the larger area made up by the surrounding Alborz mountains to the south. See the grey line above approximating this area on the satellite map.  The 1730 map shows that the top part of the extra girth did  look this way up to the first curve after the bend at that time. Consider what it would look like if it were flooded further. 2. In another area where the water line doesn't quite work, at the top, there is a solid line drawn in the f75r diagram which creates a triangle, drawn in blue at the top of the satellite image. Perhaps this wasn't supposed to have been painted in, or was, as a means of hiding the content. Or perhaps this area was flooded too. 3. The rest of the top matches quite well, see the orange line. 4. The Volga and Ural rivers match well with the darkest blue lines in the "umbrella". The nebuly lines seem to me to indicate that the water is known to come from mountains or areas which are not known to be populated. 5. The red lines on the satellite map indicate other areas that don't quite match but could have been done that way for aesthetics or might not have been there at the time. The 1730 map does not show the peninsula to the right. 6. The Kuma river forms the top of the yellow "handle" shape shown in blue on the diagram. You can see the river in the 1730 map above just under the Volga delta, or perhaps it is the Terek, or both and more. The entire area within is also rivers, coming down from the greater Caucasus. This is what I think the imagery represents that is raining onto this line, shown in buff of the satellite map. 7. The bucket the nymph sits in on the bottom, highlighted in green on the satellite image, matches a location of Gorgan bay which is almost fully enclosed. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 8. The nymph with the hands behind her back seems to represent some features in the landscape. There is a break in the mountains corresponding to where her foot is drawn, that matches the location of the Uzboy river entance to the Caspian, now dry. 9. The other nymphs seem to be showing the depth of the Caspian. They keep getting deeper and deeper until the last nymph cannot touch bottom and is floating. The stick held by the one nymph shows the deepest area of the upper part of the sea. 10. The Gorgan river is located at the dark blue highlighted area, which matches where a river has been drawn in the diagram. Or it could be the Quarasu. 11. If the Gorgan is the river depicted, perhaps the other body of water is supposed to be the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. area (didn't know what else to call it) in a flooded state. It's about central in the larger area at the bottom of Turkmenistan, the second bump in the mountain line that makes up the lower limit of the Caspian. The greater area around the gas field mimics the size and shape of the current Aral Sea depression to the north. 12. The Uzboy river also seems similar to the one drawn but would turn in the opposite direction and would be near the bottom, not the top of the Aral Sea. A speculation on a possible story portrayed if the gas field area is involved: In 1388 Timur created changes in the Amudarya that would send its waters to the Caspian via the Uzboy instead of into the Aral Sea, this would continue until about 1573 when the Amudarya began to flow into the Aral again, and the Uzboy dried up. Evidently the Uzboy couldn't have taken in the full extent of the Amudarya flow, and in1417 it was reported that the Aral Sea had disappeared, which would mean it didn't go there. Perhaps if some of the Amudarya flow went south into the gas field depression, it might seem as though the Aral sea had moved down to be closer to the bottom of the Caspian instead of the top. The same waters would be involved, so it is reasonable to think of it that way. 13. I'll stop with a baker's dozen. Here is f75r's second body of water, the Aral Sea in the mid 1800's and around the early 1970's, and the gas field area. Note the pointy areas to the right on all of them. The dark green line to the right of the last photo is the Amudarya river. But I believe the body of water is meant to portray the Aral Sea, and the nymphs represent the various deltas and bays that have existed. As it is now, only the deltas represented by the middle bottom nymph's foot and the large nymph's arm are flowing, being the mouths of the Amudarya and the Syrdarya respectively. Thanks for your time taken in reading this. I'd be very interested to hear what others think of this idea. It seems to me there would have to be a large number of similarities put to coincidence if the text proved to be discussing something else.   f75v as Armenia Posted by: Linda - 12-07-2016, 10:24 AM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (2) Ok so what appears to be a right angled river (blue) into two packages of "heavenly" water (blue) into 10 streams into green body of water, with a connection to another blue body of water. Note in this 1414 map a river mouth on the west side of the Caspian, near the Baku projection into the lake, which comes from the  west, turning from the south twice at right angles at a mountain where it rises. Note that on the other side of this mountain we see rivers which connect to the Persian Gulf. In this Ptolemy Map you can see a similar configuration. Note the two lakes that look like one divided by a mountain. I think the heavenly blue is runoff from the mountain, which obviously goes to either side, feeding both lakes and various rivers which make it back to the one that goes to the Caspian, which is marked as the Araxes. The river attached to the left lake goes south and ultimately to the Persian Gulf, and is the Euphrates. The lake is Van, the other lake is Urmia. Both are salt lakes, which is why the combined water body shows green. The other lake attached to the Araxes by another river is Sevan which is a freshwater lake and is therefore shown in blue.  So in effect I think the page is showing that all water bodies share heavenly water no matter how divided or different it may seem they are.  I think Sevan is shown at the bottom of the page because it is not actually a stop on the tour, since you'd have to go out of your way to get there, (I'm suggesting this page is saying how to get to the Persian Gulf, or at least to the rivers that will get you there, from the Caspian Sea) but is of enough significance to discuss as an aside. The boat in the Caspian on the map is Noah's Ark, and Mount Ararat is located between the three lakes. This is shown on many other types of maps  as well and can help you locate Armenia on them. This version shows a little better the shape of the lakes, note the similarity between Sevan and the blue lake at the bottom of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. diagram, kind of bulbous with an extension in both cases. At various times such as above in Armenia Major, or this map indicating place names of the 9th century, they all belonged to the same Kingdom, only Sevan lies in what is Armenia today.   Nebuly plant leaves Posted by: R. Sale - 11-07-2016, 08:39 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (12) The VMs has several examples (f35v, f41v, f50r) of plants where the leaf edges are drawn with a nebuly line. Nebly is a term borrowed from heraldry that defines a line similar to a sine wave, but with bulbous crests and troughs. Are there really plants that have this kind of leaf margin? And has anyone found this type of line similarly used in other medieval botanical illustrations? Other examples of the use of this line are found in VMs Quire 13 and elsewhere. This clearly puts the VMs in the group using this artistic device, while there are many examples illustrations and manuscripts where such use is not demonstrated.   f99v Confirmation Manuscript Posted by: SMDresearch - 09-07-2016, 06:23 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (3) Hello Just a quick note to post about an important confirmation of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.  Which was identified a couple years ago by Steve D. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. While few believed that this was reality let alone any of  the speculations about such a mystery, many did hold judgment until some additional outside confirmations were made. Mycologists seemed in agreement because so many markings matched up to only this mushroom.  But what about other Manuscripts? Well that has been a long standing Voynich problem Today the British Museum posted on a small mystery page that has close similarities to the Voynich and also shows the white mushroom in a Hugelkultur Garden.  I find this quite incredible ! First  lets go to the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. painting You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. then wiki info and photo You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. British Museum Post You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Hugelkultur  images    a long pile of wood with mounding of earth & composting You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Mushroom paintings from middle ages are quite rare they burned them all,  and continued burning into new world as well Its amazing we have any imagery at all of this important discovery Sincerely SMD Research Team   [split] Discussion of f116v interpretations by Anton Alipov Posted by: ThomasCoon - 09-07-2016, 03:11 AM - Forum: Marginalia - Replies (87) (08-07-2016, 05:03 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Well then would be nice if you have a look at my older posts on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. marginalia and provide feedback (or new ideas perhaps): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Thx in advance! I'll be happy to read them, friend! I'll PM you on Sat/Sun when I have more time   My thoughts on the VMS Posted by: ThomasCoon - 07-07-2016, 10:00 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text - Replies (59) Hey all, I'm just making this thread to organize my approaches to decoding the manuscript. I've got two angles of approach: Method 1) Figuring out the grammar of the manuscript. If I can figure out that the manuscript has conjugations or declension patterns, I can start to narrow down the underlying language. Method 2) Figuring out what characters act like vowels and which act like consonants. Or: trying to figure out if some Voynich characters represent multiple sounds (like Latin abbreviations).   additional medieval book uses Posted by: don of tallahassee - 05-07-2016, 03:52 PM - Forum: Codicology and Paleography - Replies (4) I found this interesting: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Thank you. Don of Tallahassee   Heraldry: The Prequel Posted by: R. Sale - 30-06-2016, 01:06 AM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (2) The recent observation that the dots were misaligned got me thinking about how one should evaluate visual details. When are such details decisive, when are they confirming, when can they be ignored. One option that opens the possibility of interpretation is the comparison with a known system. Heraldry is a known system, well established and far less changeable than the more glamorous fields of alchemy and astrology have been shown to be. In order to use the system, the proper images must be included in the illustrations. But the VMs is not an instructional text. It is a text for those who already know and therefore can recognize what the illustrations present. But what happens when the dots are not aligned? What happens when the standard example doesn't have as many blue lines as the VMs illustration? Does that invalidate the comparison? What happens if there are problems with the presumed standard. There were a number of years, way back when, when the Wiki representation of the Fieschi armorial insignia had the colors reversed. Here is the current Wiki version: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. And here is the representation found on the tomb of Pope Adrian V. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. And they are not the same. The difference is whether the top line is divided into thirds or into quarters. Quarters is a better arrangement because it conforms with the standard heraldic rule for primary tincture placement. But the real matter of significance is to determine the correct version of the standard example before it can be compared with the VMs illustration. Otherwise, those, who have already made this superficial comparison, will find it wanting. That determination is made with the blazon. And in this case, the blazon of the Genoese popes, is, 'bendy, argent et azur'. That is diagonally striped, and striped in pairs, with silver and blue. But it does not say how many pairs, it could be three pairs, which is shown in both examples above. This is called a bendy in six parts, but it could be a bendy in eight parts, or ten parts or twelve parts. The counting of parts was instituted in the 1800s to clarify matters, but obviously cannot be applied retroactively. So the VMs does not exceed the blazon definition, though one might expect with a tub, that the decoration goes all the way around. The thing about the illustrations is not that they are exact copies of armorial insignia. They are evocative representations of a particular, heraldic, armorial insignia and a particular ecclesiastical heraldic hat. A simple combination of two heraldic markers in a unique historical event. It is of course necessary to get the VMs patterns to a proper orientation. And this is done by removal of the radial distractions and viewing the orientation of the two blue-striped patterns as they exist on the page! Once the innate pairing of the striped patterns and the red galero come together, the historic identification should come into play. Numerous members of the Catholic ecclesiastical hierarchy would certainly have the potential to posit this identification and immediately see that the characters are in their proper hierarchical places in the celestial spheres shown in the illustration. Placement is objective, not subjective. The problem is that in modern investigation, these images are only seen as generic. Their evocative identities have been lost and a list of objective positional confirmations, including the papelonny pun somehow still fails the test of historically grounded identification even though its been intentionally placed in the illustrations. But what happens when we don't know papelonny? May the prequel expand your identifications. 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