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+--- Thread: f70v2 Circular Pattern and Greek Pottery Border Designs (/thread-642.html)
f70v2 Circular Pattern and Greek Pottery Border Designs - Sam G - 17-07-2016
There's a certain similarity between the design found around the central roundel on f70v2 (Pisces/March) and a border design commonly found on classical Greek pottery. Here's a comparison:
It's not an exact match of course, but in both cases we see small segments with a "four way" division separated by segments of 2-3 times their width containing "zigzag" patterns. It's also not hard to imagine that the simpler zigzag patterns we see in the VMS could have arisen from the "stepped meander" patterns of the Greek design via several generations of imprecise copying.
Of course, the resemblance could be completely coincidental, so what I'd like to know is if anyone knows of other patterns similar to the one found in the VMS, especially if there are any in the medieval Latin manuscript tradition.
RE: f70v2 Circular Pattern and Greek Pottery Border Designs - R. Sale - 17-07-2016
Sam G,
Nice one! There is a strong similarity in the alternation between the shorter and longer pattern segments. And there is a general similarity between the patterns found in the corresponding segments, which is decidedly weaker in the longer segments, particularly as the VMs uses several different patterns in the longer segments.
In order to establish a strong case for derivation and degenerative reproduction, the discovery of relevant, chronological intermediaries is necessary. We'll just have to see what can be found.
RE: f70v2 Circular Pattern and Greek Pottery Border Designs - Koen G - 17-07-2016
What has always stopped me from pointing out such similarity is that in the classical example the pattern seems purely decorative while in the Voynich it looks like it could have some meaning.
I have had the best success finding matches for patterns in Ptolemaic Egyptian art, so basically a mixture of the Greek and the Egyptian.
![[Image: roundel.jpg?w=616]](https://herculeaf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/roundel.jpg?w=616)
![[Image: patterns.jpg?w=616]](https://herculeaf.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/patterns.jpg?w=616)
(Some of the patterns in the Bastet statuettes above are also found in the roundel you posted)
These next examples are from a Ptolemaic papyrus (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) The cross-thing apparently means "town" which is interesting. Diane has pointed out before that the Voynich draws flowing water after the Egyptian custom, though I provide a different example:
RE: f70v2 Circular Pattern and Greek Pottery Border Designs - Sam G - 18-07-2016
(17-07-2016, 09:36 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What has always stopped me from pointing out such similarity is that in the classical example the pattern seems purely decorative while in the Voynich it looks like it could have some meaning.
It's possible, especially since the four-way symbol shows up in isolation in a number of the text rings, and also in pairs on each side of bits of text in the outer ring on f67r1. It does seem to serve some kind of function in those contexts, but on the Pisces roundel it does look like it's primarily decorative I think.
I actually noticed this similarity with the Greek pottery a couple years ago when looking at one of those pots in a museum. At the time I thought it had to be a coincidence, but now I'm not as sure.
Quote:I have had the best success finding matches for patterns in Ptolemaic Egyptian art, so basically a mixture of the Greek and the Egyptian.
(Some of the patterns in the Bastet statuettes above are also found in the roundel you posted)
That's actually pretty interesting. I've wondered about that motif before since it also shows up on one of the radial arms on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (at about 2 o'clock), on the bottom right rosette on the nine-rosette page, and one of the tubs on f70v2. It seems like it must have signified something to the VMS illustrator.
Quote:These next examples are from a Ptolemaic papyrus (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) The cross-thing apparently means "town" which is interesting. Diane has pointed out before that the Voynich draws flowing water after the Egyptian custom, though I provide a different example:
My question here is: are you certain that nobody in medieval Europe (or any other cultures) had a similar convention for drawing moving water?
RE: f70v2 Circular Pattern and Greek Pottery Border Designs - Koen G - 18-07-2016
About the water - it might exist elsewhere, but as a convention? Not that I'm aware of. In Hellenistic Egypt though, it was still a convention, and can be seen in all kinds of contexts, for example also in between the Pisces on the Dendera Zodiacs (Roman Period), and all kinds of papyri.
In Diane's post where I read this, she actually provides a later example of the pattern as well: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: f70v2 Circular Pattern and Greek Pottery Border Designs - R. Sale - 18-07-2016
That little marker, the rectangular area with a U-shaped arch on the interior of the midpoint of all four sides, is something that shows up in circular texts all over the VMs. Two are in the Central Rosette circular text; top and bottom. There are variations on the pattern where the arch is more like a column as in many of the Pisces examples. There are different patterns, simple ladders and a sort of herring bone pattern, that are also found in the circular text bands. Then in the VMs Zodiac the three examples are far more elaborate than the basic 4U design. the
But are these patterned boxes marking text or just filling in space the text didn't cover? And how could these two possibilities be distinguished? Put a special marker on a unique marker.
So how does a little pattern like this make the chronological leap from ancient Egypt to the VMs parchment? Was it borrowed or reinvented? With heraldry, the patterns are contemporary with the time in which the VMs was created. With the suggestion of an Egyptian connection, there's a lot more explaining to do. There is a substantial chronological and cultural leap here. Can we just invoke some sort of connection whenever we want?
RE: f70v2 Circular Pattern and Greek Pottery Border Designs - Koen G - 18-07-2016
Simple - the VM is just a copy with minor alterations. I mostly follow Diane's view that these originally Hellenistic images reached us through the Eastern trade routes. That is, very (too) simply put, they were used and maintained by traders who took them along with them East. That explains why we don't immediately recognize the human figures as typically Greek or Egyptian. They have been influenced by "Eastern" scribes with their own customs and (religious) taboos.
Some medieval additions must of course be assumed, like the crossbowman, but by and large everything seems like a lone survivor of a lost tradition.
I strongly believe that the 15thC copyists did not understand much of what they were copying, and likely got the assignment to copy these documents because of their antiquity or presumed value in trade. I lean more towards the "antiquity" side, while if you ask Diane she'll say value in trade. She thinks the documents were kept safe because they explained (making up an example here) how to get pepper from India to Europe and get lots of money from it.
We still have Egyptian papyri now, in 2016, so it is possible that some of them were found and copied. To me it seems clear though, that it was not an Egyptian work but rather one of Greeks living in Egypt, or Romans if we go to the first centuries CE - not much difference in this context, the Greco-Roman period is often taken as a whole.
So if I say the Ptolemaic or Hellenistic period is the sweet spot, I mean that whatever images reached us through some unique twist of fate were first made in that period, and in a "Greek" Egypt.
This is not aimed at you or anyone in particular, but I have never understood why so many people insist that the VM must have been a 15thC creation. Yes, the artefact is 15thC European - of course! But why can't it's contents be older, and why can't it have been a "blind" copy with minor alterations?
RE: f70v2 Circular Pattern and Greek Pottery Border Designs - Diane - 19-07-2016
Two small points (and thanks to Koen for the acknowledgements)
1. Motifs such as flowing water depicted by the zig-zag which was the motif adopted for the hieroglyph "n" (for water) nicely equated with the Latin "m" (mare). Egyptian mores affected early western monasticism, so we sometimes find the same way of depicting water in the early (Irish-Egyptian) influenced centres. Bobbio for one, and after it Piacenza (where, rather later, the oft-cited example of gallows letters would be written).
2. As decorative patterns a great many of the same occur - often together in the same border- on metal work from hither Asia. That's not really so surprising, since many things about the astronomical 'ladies' folio also point to that region.
3. I'm strongly inclined to think, though I cannot prove, that the pattern around the roundel on f70v2 is actually a notation system, not a decorative pattern as such. I believe it probably has something to do with the mariners' use of the stars known as the "Guards" (circumpolar stars) to measure the hours and to determine the position of the Pole star when it was obscured. As I think I've said somewhere already, I don't believe the two fishes were *Originally* intended for Pisces, but the images were re-defined, and made to serve as a calendar. Since the motifs in the centre do not correspond with the series of the zodiac - a wild 'red bull' with antelope-like appearance, two goats, no sheep etc. etc. do not a zodiac make. But someone did their very best to make them serve as a calendar.
