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| Sleeve focus thread |
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Posted by: Koen G - 04-10-2018, 09:04 PM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (115)
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I've been thinking a lot about how we can collectively determine a date range for the Zodiac figures' dress. In another thread I tried to focus on one figure, but soon realized that this wouldn't be the best approach; it leaves too many items open to interpretation. However, while researching my previous blog post, I read something which might be more useful. Apparently sleeves were very much a locus for fashion evolution during the Middle Ages.
Fortune has it that we have two very marked types of sleeves in the VM: wide, dagged ones for women and baggy sleeves for the Archer. If we were to collect examples of each and map the date points, it should be possible to create some kind of heat map for both. On the museum's note about the Devonshire Hunting Tapestries, it says that "Bagpipe sleeves seen in the tapestry went out of fashion around 1430." This provides a hypothetical upper limit for the male dress, which may or may not be challenged by our exercise.
EDIT: I'll make a separate thread for the female dress.
I'll keep the list updated here.
MEN:
- Basel Universitätsbibliothek A II 4, Freiburg, 1400, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Bibliothèque de l'Arsenal Ms-3480, France, 1400-1425, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Bibliothèque de l'Arsenal Ms-5193 réserve, Paris, 1411, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Bibliothèque de l'Arsenal Ms-664 réserve, Paris, 1411, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- BL Add MS 18850 (Bedford Hours), Paris, 1423, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- BL Add MS 11575, Bruges, 1400-1425, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- BL Harley 4431, Paris, 1410-1414, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- BL King's 5, Northern Netherlands, 1405, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- BL Royal 45, England, ca. 1400, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- BL Royal 20 B XX, Paris, 1400-1425, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- BNF MS Fr. 23279, Paris, 1410, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- BNF MS Fr. 12420, Paris, 1403, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.=
- BNF MS Fr. 616, Paris, 1405-1409, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- BNF MS Fr. 9333, Northern Italy, 1380-1399, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- BSB Clm 8201, Bavaria, 1414, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Cod. Pal. germ. 471, Nürnberg, 1425-1431, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Cod. Pal. germ. 794, Schwaben, 1415, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Cotton MS Nero A X/2 (Gawain), England, 1400-1410, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Genève Ms. fr. 57, France, 1402, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Houghton Typ 127, France, 1430, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.=
- Huntington mssEL 26 C 9, England, 1400-1410, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Morgan MS M.396, Northeastern France, 1425-1430, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Morgan MS M.453, Paris, 1425-1430, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Morgan MS M.245, Paris, 1405, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- ÖNB Cod. Ser. n. 2644, North Italy, 1380-1399, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Pal. Lat. 1806, Augsburg, 1400-1430 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Pal. Lat. 1726, Heidelberg, 1423, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Reg. Lat. 1290, Northern Italy, 1420, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Trinity R 15 21, England, 1408, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Werkstatt von 1418, Haguenau (Alsace), 1418 ca., many manuscripts.
- Werkstatt Diebold Lauber, Haguenau (Alsace), 1450 ca., many manuscripts.
- Aquila tower frescos, North Italy, 1400 ca., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Black Palace frescos, Coredo (Trentino), 1460 ca., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Castello della Manta frescos, North-West Italy, 1410-1420, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Devonshire Hunting Tapestries, South Netherlands, 1425-1430, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Fra Angelico, Italy, 1430-1437, various paintings from this period.
- Ortenberg altarpiece, Middle Rhineland, 1420, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Van Eyck's Madonna of Chancellor Rolin, Flanders/Burgundy, 1435, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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| A Beginner’s Question: What is EVA-b? |
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Posted by: ChenZheChina - 04-10-2018, 06:14 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (11)
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Hi everyone,
I am wondering one thing: What is EVA-b?
I checked René’s webpage about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., which says:
Quote:As it turned out, there were three single characters that might be called unusual because they did not appear in any of the previously defined transcription alphabets, but which occurred more than 10 times in the MS. These three characters: b, u and z were assigned their own 'Basic Eva' letter (b, u and z respectively)
However, I did not see EVA-b or EVA-u on voynichese.com.
Then I checked You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., and found EVA-u on f89v1 (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). At the same spot, voynichese.com recognize this word (du) as ligature an (dan). Though a bit unexpected, at least I’ve found it.
So, the only remaining question is, what is EVA-b?
I checked the original images page-by-page, and found voynichese.com has You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. To me, the final n’s seem to be EVA-b (b). Is this it? Is voynichese.com, or the transcript they use, systematically transcribe EVA-b as EVA-n? Or, is EVA-b something else that I haven’t found yet?
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| Parallels for dress: Gemini MALE |
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Posted by: Koen G - 21-09-2018, 10:27 AM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (22)
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To get a better picture of what we're dealing with, it would be interesting if we could find out the time and place(s) where we can expect the type of dress worn by the Gemini to emerge. Since this is only about the dress, I decided to make a separate thread for man and woman. It doesn't matter who is wearing it: man with woman, man on horse, man in battle... We're interested in the type of dress by itself.
This approach is valid because, as other members on the forum have pointed out, dress evolves separately from other image factors, especially during medieval times.
Now those who have studied medieval wardrobe to some extent can probably say something like "these clothes are typical for much of the 14th-15th century all over Europe", but this broad statement obviously won't help us much. We'll have to dig into the details. What was important enough to include in the drawing? Are there perhaps minor variations in style that could point us to a more specific region or time?
With subjects like these it is difficult to exclude personal impression, so just to help us sift through the available materia I propose to make use of a set of filters wich will allow us to attach a "score" to each individual piece of clothing. It is not the intention to find an image with a 100% score. If our best matches turn out to be only around 50%, that's perfectly fine. Each medieval drawing is unique, so finding a 100% match is not required. We're looking for tendencies.
I propose the following checks for the male clothing, but these should be discussed beforehand. I have doubted to include color, but then decided that it should be included since it might be part of regional or temporal preference, for all we know. And it's only one factor of many.
gemiman.jpg (Size: 53.2 KB / Downloads: 346)
Houppelande:
- Belted
- Length: between knees and ankles (?)
- Lobed bottom (wavy)
- Vertical lines in body (folds, plaits...)
- Neck collar
- Sleeve collars
- Sleeves till wrist
- Sleeves fitting/narrow at wrist
- No overcoat
- Green
Hat:
- Wider than head
- Shaped like flat cylinder
- Nothing on top
- Nothing hanging down
- Green
Boots:
- Separate from hose
- Visible laces
- About ankle height or a bit higher
- Tip relatively rounded
- Same color as hose
This gives 10,5,5 points to check individual pieces of clothing and 20 for an entire ensemble. It's likely that I got some things wrong or missed something important, so the list should be discussed before starting (although it can always be adjusted afterwards if necessary).
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| medieval references to roundels |
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Posted by: Davidsch - 12-09-2018, 01:34 PM - Forum: Astrology & Astronomy
- Replies (2)
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Following some interesting stuff mentioned in relation to Diebold Lauber ,
I just randomly browsed the Pal Lat 1370 and was wondering how the scribe makes a reference in the text towards the roundels?
Since there is only a small page number, on the right top, I assume that was written later.
take for example
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If he writes something about the the zodiacs and calculations in relation to the tables and astrological explanation, how would the scribe make a reference to the appropriate drawing?
(extra image: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
added: a fun fact in Hongarian one would write for Page 53 -> 53 oldal
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| An earlier Marci? |
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Posted by: -JKP- - 31-08-2018, 11:37 PM - Forum: Provenance & history
- Replies (10)
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René, is there any information on earlier members of Iohannes Marci's family (father, grandfather, uncles)?
There is a notation top-right (possibly an ex libris) at the end of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:
![[Image: GeorgiusMarci.png]](https://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/GeorgiusMarci.png)
A[nn]o 1561 Ad 18 octobre
in ?p g? hispurg (hisburg) (might the third character be c-tail?)
R I D G? (N D G?)
Georgius Marcius
Handwritten manuscripts were on the wane in the 16th century, with mass-produced books quickly replacing them, so they tended to stay in the small circles of people who could afford them. The CLM 1111 is from the Alsace, but ended up in the Munich library, so may have moved around.
I thought you might like to take a look in case there's a possible connection Between George Marci and Iohannes Marcus Marci.
-----------------
Also, on a paleographical note... Note the looong serif on the "i" on the second and fourth lines. This is an uncommon way to write "i" (I have to really search to find examples) and matches the "i" in "chiton" "imiltos" "nim" and (to some extent) "mich" on 116v.
Also, the small looped "n" is also uncommon and close to the "n" in "nim".
Note also the 3rd character in the 2nd row. It's probably not "r" (r wasn't written this way unless it had a tail and this is not a tail), it's probably an open-top "p" (although I'm not completely sure) and might be the same long-serif open-top "p" that is above "ven mus mel".
It's not the same handwriting as the 116v marginalia, and one can see the evolution from Gothic to Humanist text (the ascender loops are gone, as gradually occurred in the 16th century), but there are enough similarities that MAYBE George Marci learned to write in the same region as the 116v marginalia writer.
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![[Image: 934px-Pisanello_018.jpg]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Pisanello_018.jpg/934px-Pisanello_018.jpg)
![[Image: woodcut.jpg]](https://herculeaf.files.wordpress.com/2018/09/woodcut.jpg)
![[Image: clothes.jpg]](https://herculeaf.files.wordpress.com/2018/09/clothes.jpg)
![[Image: laced.jpg]](https://herculeaf.files.wordpress.com/2018/09/laced.jpg)