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Welcome, Guest You have to register before you can post on our site. Username/Email:    Password    Remember me Search Forums (Advanced Search) Online Users There are currently 492 online users. » 3 Member(s) | 484 Guest(s) Applebot, Baidu, Bing, Google, Yandex, petervank, yinyang2024 Latest Threads 116v Forum: Marginalia Last Post: JoJo_Jost 38 minutes ago » Replies: 1,144 » Views: 686,005 Voynich Presentation! Forum: Voynich Talk Last Post: Koen G 43 minutes ago » Replies: 5 » Views: 154 qocheedy dain daiin Forum: ChatGPTPrison Last Post: Koen G 49 minutes ago » Replies: 1 » Views: 30 Naibbe cipher paper Forum: News Last Post: Krasturak 5 hours ago » Replies: 18 » Views: 2,518 Apotecary Albarello Forum: Imagery Last Post: Dobri 5 hours ago » Replies: 0 » Views: 52 restoring parts of the mi... Forum: Theories & Solutions Last Post: Jorge_Stolfi 5 hours ago » Replies: 3 » Views: 167 a, b ,c at the f68r Forum: Marginalia Last Post: Bluetoes101 Yesterday, 09:04 PM » Replies: 3 » Views: 332 f67v2 - daily cycle of Su... Forum: Imagery Last Post: Bluetoes101 Yesterday, 08:46 PM » Replies: 1 » Views: 112 Some Notes on the Voynich... Forum: ChatGPTPrison Last Post: tavie Yesterday, 06:47 PM » Replies: 1 » Views: 119 [split] Retracer Thread: ... Forum: Voynich Talk Last Post: Jorge_Stolfi Yesterday, 06:12 PM » Replies: 250 » Views: 27,376

Villa Mondragone, Villa Vecchia, and Villa Torlonia Posted by: ReneZ - 25-08-2019, 10:56 AM - Forum: Provenance & history - Replies (5) The 2012 celebration of the 100th anniversary of the 'discovery' of the Voynich MS by Wilfrid Voynich took place in Villa Mondragone, on 11 May. At the time of the event, I already had some doubt about both the year and the location of this discovery. By now, it is clear that he did not discover the set of manuscripts including the Voynich MS, but he certainly bought it sometime somewhere. For the year, it really seems that 1912 is right, even though the deal may have been started in 1911. It even seems that the deal may have been concluded in May, but we may never find out for certain. There is a 'Terminus Ante Quem' for 26 June, when two of the manuscripts from this sale were seen in Budapest. For the place of the sale, I have no more news (yet). One of the hotels that was recommended to visitors of the Villa Mondragone event was Villa Vecchia, at the foot of the hill on which Mondragone lies (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). I don't remember who among the attendants stayed there. I was in the centre of Frascati. We didn't know then, but this Villa also has a very minor role in the history of the MS. The main set of documents that the Jesuits wanted to salvage from confiscation in 1873, and which were marked as 'from the private library of P. Beckx' were taken from Rome to a Villa in Castel Gandolfo called the Villa Torlonia, which was also hosting the Jesuit novitiate (moved there from Rome). This set of documents included the well-known volumes of the Kircher correspondence. It stayed there until 1919, when the the prince of Torlonia decided to cancel the rent of the place to the Jesuits. The collection of manuscripts was taken back to Rome, while the novitiate moved to the above-mentioned Villa Vecchia in the town of Monteporzio Catone. This villa was turned into a hotel much later.   Look at *differences* between words rather than at the words themselves? Posted by: radapox - 24-08-2019, 07:00 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text - Replies (50) Hi there, Voynichers. First, let me introduce myself: I'm a guy from the Netherlands with a background in linguistics, a general interest in anything to do with language(s) and writing systems, and a tendency to construct the latter myself. I've been a lurker here for some time, a follower of Nick Pelling's and René Zandbergen's sites for quite a bit longer, and generally intrigued by the VM for much of my conscious existence, although I've never done anything serious with it and I don't know what the heck a "Neal key" is even after having read You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. ;) Regarding the VM text, I suppose I'm largely on the side of most members here: I don't think any of the "solutions" to the text offered thus far have been of much use whatsoever (this is the polite version of my true feelings as a linguist), but I wouldn't dare claiming I have a better clue myself. Safe to say that my cryptology skills don't go nearly as far as my fascination with it. That said, I've recently been thinking about an idea, and was wondering if you would happen to know if this has ever been considered before (cue Yes it has, you utter noob, leave this to the big kids) or even sounds remotely plausible. I came up with it because some of my conscripts/langs/thingies work on the same basic principle, which you could call a "relative code": i.e., the meaning of a linguistic unit (character, word, whatever) is not determined by its "absolute" value, but by its difference in value with adjacent units. A simple example to illustrate the principle. Say you want to encipher the word BOOK. To do this, you note the numeric positions of each letter in the alphabet (2-15-15-11), which you then use as steps to be taken forward through the alphabet for each subsequent letter (starting back at the beginning when you get past 26) to get your ciphertext. You need to choose a starting point beforehand; say the letter A. Then, to encipher the first letter of your plaintext (B), you add the value of that letter (2) to the value of your chosen starting letter (A = 1), which in our example gives you 3, which corresponds to C. The C is then taken as the starting point for the next letter, and so on for each step: A + B = 1 + 2 = 3 = C C + O = 3 + 15 = 18 = R R + O = 18 + 15 = 33(mod26) = 7 = G G + K = 7 + 11 = 18 = R The plaintext BOOK is thus enciphered as CRGR. Note how the same plaintext character can end up as different ciphertext characters (the first O has become an R; the second one a G), and vice versa (the first O and the K are both enciphered as R). Should we want to decipher the message CRGR, we must calculate the differences (in terms of numeric value) between each subsequent pair of letters; hence the term "relative code." Counting backwards from the end of the ciphertext, the "difference" between R and G is K, the difference between G and R is O; the difference between R and C is O again; and the difference between C and the letter you chose as your starting point (A) is B. There we are, back at BOOK. Now this is of course a very simple example, and I'm not expecting the VM text to do anything as straightforward as this or we'd have found out long ago--at least on a letter-by-letter basis. However, could it be the case that something akin to this principle is going on between certain subsequent words (or even larger units)? The fact that so many passages consist of similar-but-not-quite-similar words (pdsheody shdol shey otchdy dshedy soeeedy dchefoey sair shedy sodair) makes me wonder if it would make sense to look at the differences between adjacent words rather than at their surface forms. I.e., not look at otchdy dshedy per se, but at the operations necessary to get from otchdy to dshedy--whatever those operations may be. Whew. This took more writing than I expected; sorry for that and thanks for bearing with me (assuming you did). Does this make any sense whatsoever, or have I fallen into the most ridiculous trap imaginable? Has this principle been considered before? I'm genuinely curious what you gals 'n' guys think of my idea, and I promise I won't get offended if you burn it to the ground where it belongs. ;) Thanks a bunch for your consideration, and keep up the great work on the narrow road of sanity!   Course in Cologne focusing on VMS Posted by: LisaFaginDavis - 19-08-2019, 03:14 PM - Forum: News - Replies (42) Hi, everyone, My thanks to everyone who has reached out to me in the wake of my piece in the Washington Post. The response has been very positive. I don't know if you all have seen this, the website for a recent course at the University of Cologne focusing on the VMS: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I particularly like the interactive timeline here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - Lisa   f35r Posted by: Koen G - 18-08-2019, 09:34 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (8) I haven't found much about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. on the forum, even though it is a remarkable plant. More so than others, it appears manipulated to match some desired shape, in this case a gold chalice. I've seen it being likened to a chalice before, but I think it's possible to analyze its various parts in a relatively coherent manner.   Naamloos-4 kopiëren.jpg (Size: 67.69 KB / Downloads: 142) At the top we can see the green of the leaves, but the outside has been painted an even golden brown. There are also somewhat regular circular marks under the paint, but I can't quite make them out.   Naamloos-6 kopiëren.jpg (Size: 84.09 KB / Downloads: 149) The stem and roots are streaked with red, which in my opinion links it to the golden chalice that caught the blood of Christ after the crucifixion. Comparison image from Wroclaw, 1443.   wroclaw.jpg (Size: 106.96 KB / Downloads: 128) This leaves the problem of the strangely curved blue petioles (?) around the flower (?). One might just say "it's round so it's a host, which was also present at the last supper" but I think it's something else. I realized this after seeing this image bi3mw posted earlier: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.   Naamloos-5 kopiëren.jpg (Size: 45.85 KB / Downloads: 175) The petioles form a "cloud" around the streaks and drops of red. The meaning seems clear: Holy Blood. If the meaning of "blue=sky" is regularly employed, it might explain why such a disproportionate percentage of VM flowers (high on plant) are blue.   Aardvark claw imagery 1v, 55v Posted by: Monica Yokubinas - 18-08-2019, 01:07 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (4) The root system on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. reminded me of an animal and on the herbal from 1520's they have what looks like an You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. on the root of the plant.  The same aardvark animal is used on the roots for You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in the 1520's herbal but was drawn as an aardvark claw on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. So, begs the questions, are the plants poisonous?  Why the usage of an aardvark?   and what would this animal possibly mean to herbalogy or alchemy?   Flower recycling Posted by: Koen G - 17-08-2019, 10:51 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (3) Not related to anything, I just found this strange. Does this mean they used a template?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. vs You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.   Naamloos-2 kopiëren.jpg (Size: 175.25 KB / Downloads: 159)   Plant f22v Posted by: -JKP- - 16-08-2019, 07:56 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (8) Here's another plant I've never been able to identify. The leaves are a bit like ground ivy, which is in many medieval manuscripts, and which spreads along the ground to form a ground cover, but it's not drawn like any other medieval plant. It has many of the same stylized qualities as f52r, which makes me wonder if some mnemonic or narrative is encoded into the plant. It might also fit with Koen's Arma Christi ideas. It has candelabra/menorah and flail-like qualities. To me, these arch-like root stems (which also occur in another plant) have always looked a bit like reliquary containers but I couldn't put my finger on why they might be drawn that way or whether they might represent archways rather than a reliquary or monstrance:   Plant22v.png (Size: 553.47 KB / Downloads: 188)   Gioacchino da Fiore - Liber Figurarum Posted by: nablator - 16-08-2019, 11:55 AM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (8) One possible parallel that goes well with the idea of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: the symbolic trees in Liber Figurarum. Quote:The Liber Figurarum is the most beautiful and important collection of the figural and symbolic theology of the Middle Ages. The "Figurae", conceived and drawn by Joachim of Fiore in different epochs, were collected in the Liber Figurarum soon after Joachim's death in 1202. The complex and original prophetic thought of the Florensis Abbot, is perfectly illustrated in the figurae. It is based on the Trinitarian theology of history and on the concordist exegesis of the Bible. This masterpiece is well preserved into three wonderful codices: the Oxford codex, the Reggio Emilia codex and the Dresden codex. The reproductions exhibited in San Giovanni in Fiore, are taken from the Reggio Emilia codex, dated around the mid XIIIth century. The oldest manuscript is that of Oxford, produced between 1200 and 1230, by the Officina Scriptoria of a Calabrian monastery, probably the Abbey of San Giovanni in Fiore. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.# To summarize outrageously, Joachim of Fiore was a kind of New Age prophet. Quote:He theorized the dawn of a new age, based on his interpretation of verses in the Book of Revelation, in which the Church would be unnecessary and in which infidels would unite with Christians. Members of the spiritual wing of the Franciscan order acclaimed him as a prophet. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. After his death, his ideas (but not his person) were condemned at the council of Latran IV (1215). From the nicest manuscript: REGGIO EMILIA, Biblioteca del Seminario Vescovile, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., ff. 1r-20v   tav2.jpg (Size: 256.3 KB / Downloads: 333) It represents the tribes of Israel (10+2 lower branches) then the apostles (only 10 middle branches, curiously) then it gets a little confusing (popes?) and the second coming of Christ at the top. An inverted eagle:   Aquila.png (Size: 415.4 KB / Downloads: 358) In the other manuscripts, there are some variations in the number of branches in the trees. Dresden, Sachsische Landesbibliothek, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., ff. 87r-96v OXFORD, Corpus Christi College, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., ff. 4v-17v CITTÀ DEL VATICANO, Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., ff. 198r-204v The closest in the VMS are You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which are similar in structure: 2 groups of branches/leaves and 3 blue flowers at the top. If the intention is prophetic, what are these flowers? I don't know. The Three Christs of Ypsilanti? You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. have the mnemonic menorah base. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. all have 3 levels of similar leaves.   Saint Barbara, baths, towers, and canons Posted by: arca_libraria - 15-08-2019, 08:23 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (9) When I joined the forum I mentioned that while I didn't have a theory or a solution, I did have a few pictures that I wanted to share because I thought I could see elements of design motifs from the VMS in there as well. I have searched to check that you haven't discussed these exact images before, but searches aren't always perfect so I'm sorry if some of you have seen and discussed these images before. I want to show you a few images of illustrations and statues of Saint Barbara because I think her martyrology story has some interesting overlaps with the VMS themes. Saint Barbara is one of the early Christian martyrs and as with quite a few of the early Christian martyrs there's a fairly large gap (several centuries) between when she lived and when her name starts appearing in sources. By the later middle ages, she was a popular and established saint and her life follows some of the major tropes for early female martyrs namely, a Christian woman promised in marriage to a pagan man, she resists the marriage and is publicly humiliated/shamed/tortured, before being executed rather than marrying a pagan. This summary of Barbara's Life is from wikipedia but the details are broadly correct Quote:According to the hagiographies, Barbara, the daughter of a rich pagan named Dioscorus, was carefully guarded by her father who kept her locked up in a tower in order to preserve her from the outside world. Having secretly become a Christian, she rejected an offer of marriage that she received through her father. Before going on a journey, her father commanded that a private bath-house be erected for her use near her dwelling, and during his absence, Barbara had three windows put in it, as a symbol of the Holy Trinity, instead of the two originally intended. When her father returned, she acknowledged herself to be a Christian; upon this he drew his sword to kill her, but her prayers created an opening in the tower wall and she was miraculously transported to a mountain gorge, where two shepherds watched their flocks. Dioscorus, in pursuit of his daughter, was rebuffed by the first shepherd, but the second betrayed her. For doing this, he was turned to stone and his flock was changed to locusts. Dragged before the prefect of the province, Martinianus, who had her cruelly tortured, Barbara held true to her Christian faith. During the night, the dark prison was bathed in light and new miracles occurred. Every morning, her wounds were healed. Torches that were to be used to burn her went out as soon as they came near her. Finally, she was condemned to death by beheading. Her father himself carried out the death-sentence. However, as punishment, he was struck by lightning on the way home and his body was consumed by flame. Barbara is sometimes associated with bath-houses because it was the modification of the bath house that led to her demonstration of faith. She is also associated with canons and artillery because some of her torturers were struck by lightning when they tried to harm her. The major attributes that you see her with in medieval art are a tower/bath-house, a canon, and a chalice. If she is depicted with a tower then sometimes it is much larger, behind her, and in the distance, but in some images it is a small tower that she holds or is about knee-high beside her. I think the canon and the chalice shapes have a certain amount of similarity with the "pharmacological" section (ff. 88r–89v2, 99r–102v), and the bathing connection is self-explanatory, and so I just wanted to know if any of you can see any similarity, or if this is a case of me seeing something because I think it's there. Barbara in a Polish altarpiece of 1447 Barbara in a Spanish altarpiece c. 1410–1425 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Barbara in an English stained glass window c. 1450 The Hague, KB, MS 76 F 7, 31v The Hague, KB, MS 76 F 30, 17v The Hague, KB, MS 133 B 13, 98r Austria, Kunst Historiches Museum, Wien (Bohemia, c. 1470?)   Wien Kunst Historiches Museum Madonna and Child small.png (Size: 668.98 KB / Downloads: 314) tl;dr does anyone think it might be worth pursuing a connection between Saint Barbara and her association with bath houses, artillery, and chalices, and the iconography of the VMS and particularly the chalice and canon/tower? shaped objects (with water for bathing in on top?) in the "pharma" section?   Plant 52r Posted by: -JKP- - 15-08-2019, 04:17 AM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (52) There's a plant I've never been able to make any sense of. Not even a tentative ID. It's plant You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , and it's one that looks like it is trying to tell (or hide) a story. Any thoughts on this one? First Previous Next Last