+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Analysis of the text (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-41.html)
+--- Thread: Greek Influences in the VMS glyphs? (/thread-3143.html)
Greek Influences in the VMS glyphs? - -JKP- - 04-04-2020
Maybe we should have a thread specific to this topic.
Note, this thread is not about Newbold's theory (he thought the tiny variations in each VMS glyph was coded in Greek shorthand). I believe the VMS text is much too small to encode any kind of shorthand at the scale he suggested. This is to discuss whether there are Greek influences in the VMS glyphs.
I've said rather frequently that I think the VMS glyphs are primarily inspired by Latin, but I think there may also be a smaller percentage of Greek influences, so maybe we should discuss whether they exist and what they might be.
-------------------------------------
Here are my ideas about it. Some are quite speculative, some I feel more strongly about.
1. Fairly speculative but maybe something to consider. Glyph order in the 57v chart 2nd ring.
I posted this idea a few years ago on another thread, but I think there might be Greek influences for the glyph order in the chart on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . I DON'T feel strongly about this, it's just a pattern I noticed. The chars in this pic (except for the 6th and 10th) actually match Latin shapes better than Greek, but maybe the ORDER of the characters was partly inspired by the Greek alphabet rather than the Latin alphabet. Greek alphabets were sometimes included in Latin manuscripts.
If you start at the end of the alphabet (with omega) and then wrap around to the beginning, then you can get omega alpha beta gamma delta. This can be seen in the second ring from the outside by rotating old-style alpha (cipher alphabets frequently have rotated letters) and by adding a tail to gamma. The lack of a bottom-bar on delta is actually not uncommon (I have collected samples). Some scribes wrote delta without the crossbar.
It's not a full alphabet and they appear to have been either Latinized or cipherized. I'm leaning toward Latinized, but maybe the order of some of the Latin chars is inspired by Greek letters with roughly similar shapes. Note that the 6th character can be found in Coptic Greek (and sometimes also in scientific manuscripts). It's not a full alphabet, but if the VMS creator were aiming for secrecy, using a full alphabet that follows the Greek alphabet would be a sure giveaway. As I said, speculative, but I thought I'd put it out there.
2. Greek Abbreviation Symbol. The staircase symbol with a dot is a rare character in the VMS. It is a shape-mate for the Greek abbreviation for "atto". I've never seen this shape in a Latin-character manuscript and Latin abbreviations don't usually have this shape. I've only seen it in charts of Greek abbreviations, but there are a few abbreviations in Greek that are based on this general idea of a staircase+dot, so it might be a specific class of abbreviation.
3. Monogrammed/Overlaid Letters. I've blogged about benching and stacking in Greek. It was a common concept in Greek that didn't carry over into Latin scribal conventions the same way as some of the other conventions, but Latin scribes were familiar with common combinations like chi-rho and pi-rho and they sometimes used the Greek symbols, instead of writing out the words in Latin or in Latinized Greek. They also occasionally used the Greek numeral conventions (which were stacked and overlaid) to write large numbers in the margins, instead of using Roman numerals (I have posted examples in blogs).
4. Greek Concepts that Maybe Inspired Gallows Characters. Stacking and benching were common concepts in Greek letters and numerals (they had several number systems). The concept was not as common in Latin, but perhaps the VMS character cPh is a Latinized shape-mate inspired by Greek pi-rho or chi-rho (the Greek letter rho looks like Latin P). mu-rho was also stacked to write numbers.
5. The upper-right loops. It's possible there are ligatures and/or abbreviations in the VMS glyph-set. For example ch might be a ligature, sh might be a ligature or abbreviation (or both). In Latin, y, g, and m are common abbreviations. Many of these concepts were borrowed from Greek.
But there is a notable difference between Greek and Latin conventions... In Greek it was very common to attach a loop to the upper-right of a letter to add "e" or "o" and this convention was only partially used by Latin scribes. Latin scribes frequently added the small "o" to abbreviations like grado, modo, and quarto but they rarely added it to letters with ascenders as was common in Greek. This is probably because the Latin alphabet doesn't lend itself as easily to this specific convention.
As an example, if we look at Voynich characters t and p, each one has a loop on the upper right. This is not common in Latin UNLESS the loop has a tail to turn it into the (very common) "-is" abbreviation. In Greek, adding a loop (without a tail) to the upper right was very common. Adding a loop to the Greek letter pi, for example, turned it into "pe" or "po" or "peri". In Latin, if you added a small loop to a "T" (without a tail), it was usually an embellishment, not an abbreviation. If you added a loop AND a tail to a "T", it was an abbreviation for "-tis" (and its homonyms).
That's probably enough for one post.
This is circumstantial evidence, but taken together, perhaps the VMS creator had some exposure to Greek or adapted some ideas from Greek scribal conventions to invent the VMS glyph-set. The glyphs are mostly Latin, but some of the concepts appear to be Greek. Many Latin scribes and some university students (probably those studying the classics) had a basic familiarity with Greek characters even if they didn't know Greek.
RE: Greek Influences in the VMS glyphs? - Mark Knowles - 04-04-2020
(04-04-2020, 06:54 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This is circumstantial evidence, but taken together, perhaps the VMS creator had some exposure to Greek or adapted some ideas from Greek scribal conventions to invent the VMS glyph-set. The glyphs are mostly Latin, but some of the concepts appear to be Greek. Many Latin scribes and some university students (probably those studying the classics) had a basic familiarity with Greek characters even if they didn't know Greek.
You say: "This is circumstantial evidence". As far as I can see it, in fact it is no evidence at all. Again you haven't included a single image containing a character from a manuscript other than the Voynich to illustrate the parallel. Preferably in the case of a suggested commonality you should show examples from a few separate sources. The reader shouldn't be expected to take your theory based on the evidence you claim exists on it's own. If you say a specific glyph can be found in a variety of given sources then you should be able to illustrate these examples. It is completely unreasonable to say the reader should study lots of sources so as to figure out which characters you might be suggesting are related.
RE: Greek Influences in the VMS glyphs? - -JKP- - 04-04-2020
Mark, whether you believe it or not isn't very relevant to this thread.
It's some observations (based on 12 years of studying manuscripts) and some gallows-character brainstorming ideas. These are things I've noticed while looking at manuscripts that might be relevant and might not.
Mark Knowles Wrote:If you say a specific glyph can be found in a variety of given sources then you should be able to illustrate these examples.
I've already posted many examples on my blogs. Even if I hadn't, the purpose of ninja threads is not to teach you palaeography. There are specialized sites on the Web where you can gain some basic knowledge of this field.
If you think "it's no evidence at all" it might be because you haven't read any Greek or Latin manuscripts.
I didn't start it to convince anyone of anything. Maybe there are Greek origins in the VMS glyph-shapes, maybe not. It does matter to me to get the idea out and discuss it with people who are interested in medieval scribal conventions and the possible origins of some of the less common VMS glyphs.
I think we would all benefit if we could work out why the benched gallows are created as they are. After searching world alphabets for several years, the one historical precedent that stands out to me is the convention of benching and stacking in Greek (in both letters and numbers), so that might be a good place to start in terms of unraveling this part of the mystery. A couple of the benched gallows even resemble Latinized versions of benched Greek characters, so it's not only the concept that's intriguing, it's some of the shapes.
RE: Greek Influences in the VMS glyphs? - R. Sale - 04-04-2020
It's a matter of scale. I said that. And as far as Newbold's idea, there is a failure, an inappropriateness of materials (and a probable lack of technical ability), that should obviously make the task impossible.
As far as the 'wrap around' idea, one could also say that it is found in the VMs Zodiac with Pisces first, which also initiates the series of pairings in the VMs medallions. So there is a structural reason for the alteration.
I'm not very familiar with Greek, can't read, can barely transliterate. However, if I were to attach any sort of Greek equivalent to the first, round, circular glyph an the left-hand side of the arch, it would be 'omicron' rather than 'omega'.
RE: Greek Influences in the VMS glyphs? - -JKP- - 04-04-2020
(04-04-2020, 05:19 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's a matter of scale. I said that. And as far as Newbold's idea, there is a failure, an inappropriateness of materials (and a probable lack of technical ability), that should obviously make the task impossible.
As far as the 'wrap around' idea, one could also say that it is found in the VMs Zodiac with Pisces first, which also initiates the series of pairings in the VMs medallions. So there is a structural reason for the alteration.
I'm not very familiar with Greek, can't read, can barely transliterate. However, if I were to attach any sort of Greek equivalent to the first, round, circular glyph an the left-hand side of the arch, it would be 'omicron' rather than 'omega'.
Normally I would agree with this... And if they are read as slightly altered cipher glyphs (with Greek inspiration) then this is a definite possibility (omicron rather than omega).
But, there is also the possibility that the glyphs are Latinized (but inspired by Greek), in which case omega is also a possibility (since Latin scribes often wrote both as "o" chars).
But... I think it is a point well taken and thanks for bringing it up. If that "o" leans more toward Greek rather than Latin or Latinized Greek, it may well be omicron rather than omega. It's possible that I have been reading too many medieval books of magic and kabbalah... alpha and omega are so very frequently adjacent in these books. :-)
It also occurred to me that the "o" might actually be zero/null or a marker or modifier. It's such a small selection of characters, it's hard to know if there's anything to it, but we can usually learn more if we get it out on the field and kick it around than letting it sit in the stalls.
RE: Greek Influences in the VMS glyphs? - R. Sale - 04-04-2020
Well, if you want to put it that way, and I have already put it that way, that alterations may have been made purely on the basis of trickery and intentional deception, as in the cosmos and the zodiac and who knows how many other places, then I'm good with that.
Back in 2016 we discussed the potential for a three way interpretation of glyph #5 under the topic: Triple convergence.
The VMs is something like a trivia quiz about medieval tradition. The information is well-known to the author, and has been placed in a VMs styled, altered, disguised form in various illustrations. Modern investigators have not been fully informed of these medieval traditions. This lack of familiarity with medieval tradition caused relevant information to be missed and investigations to go off on fruitless paths. More than a century of investigation passed before the cosmos - cloud-band - nebuly line connections were made, as one example.
And here I strongly agree, if one investigator has found an example of traditional connection or several examples. It is still unlikely to be sufficient to encompass the whole VMs solution. But if each investigator can contribute one or more traditional connections to an expanded data base, then possibilities can only improve. As more data accumulates, it will hopefully start to reach a sort of critical mass, where things start to connect with each other. And I feel that the beginnings of this may already be underway.
RE: Greek Influences in the VMS glyphs? - -JKP- - 04-04-2020
(04-04-2020, 06:55 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
The information is well-known to the author, and has been placed in a VMs styled, altered, disguised form in various illustrations...
This is the feeling I get too. I'm not completely sure, but certainly leaning in that direction. I sometimes wonder if it was originally intended to pass down trade secrets but the creator got so caught up in the "game" that it turned into something else.
RE: Greek Influences in the VMS glyphs? - R. Sale - 04-04-2020
If you want to convince yourself of the author's 'ingenuity', take a look at White Aries, the clues are there, for those who know the tradition. And for those who do not know that tradition, nary a blip on the radar.
Insertion into a radial diagram (White Aries) is an intentional use of an optical illusion. This was done on purpose like the tricky cosmos. So that question has been answered. There is deceptive intent. But the other question is: *What* is it s/he has done? [Only if we can discover what was done might there be some idea of motivation.]
The combination of pigment and hatching patterns in the representation of an armorial heraldic insignia is a in intentional disguise. And in heraldry such a combination is so wrong that I've never seen a rule against it and never seen an example of it. The investigators are left to make their own decisions. There aren't that many possibilities. Try them all. One of them is a winner. How does that happen without intent?
Then there is the built-in papelonny pun, an intentional structure. But without tradition, without terminology, without a proper image of what this is about, the humor is unavoidably lost.
And there is more. Why is White Aries so well painted? Two reasons: 1) If you want to hide something that needs to be painted, you paint everything with it; 2) If you want something to be seen as white, you can't leave the page unpainted.
The trick involved is like the trick in heraldic canting, or the interpretation of a rebus. It is necessary to know what the item is and the proper traditional terminology. This is the tenuous base that opens the door to progress.
RE: Greek Influences in the VMS glyphs? - DONJCH - 05-04-2020
(04-04-2020, 08:51 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.the humor is unavoidably lost.So you are saying that the VM could be a jest, a stunt, a piece of medieval performance art?
RE: Greek Influences in the VMS glyphs? - Koen G - 05-04-2020
(05-04-2020, 08:28 AM)DONJCH Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So you are saying that the VM could be a jest, a stunt, a piece of medieval performance art?
This is actually a possibility I often consider, though I prefer "intellectual exercise". Both in the script and the images, we see touching points with the dominant culture of the time, but they have been employed in a disorienting way. This is done very consistently over many pages.
We know that at least five people worked on this thing, so there was also some group component involved, whatever the relationship between these people was. Assuming none of the scribes died, there was an audience of at least four.
I don't know if this is the case, but it's one of the things I keep in mind. The driving force may have been the concept itself rather than secrecy.