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| Discussing the VM text orally |
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Posted by: pfeaster - 27-06-2022, 02:42 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (10)
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As the International Conference on the Voynich Manuscript draws nearer, I suddenly find myself wondering what an oral conversation about research into the text would (or could, or should) sound like.
EVA is often described as "pronounceable," and I see that there's been some discussion of this point, mainly here --
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-- but many of its distinctions would be difficult to pronounce unambiguously, other than by uttering the names of the individual letters. So, for example, I imagine most speakers would tend to pronounce [qo] and [ko] identically, or [dain] and [daiin]. Likewise, [qokedy] and [qokeedy] might sound the same depending on what point of reference one uses for [e] and [ee]. And then there are rare sequences such as [iy], which I think I'd personally tend to pronounce the same as [i] or [y]. Plus, if I say something that sounds like "dee" in English, should I be understood as meaning [d] or [dy]?
By planning ahead, I suppose a presenter could show a word onscreen and indicate it while saying "THIS word" or "THAT word," but that option wouldn't be available to someone in a Q&A session.
Meanwhile, even using the names of EVA letters might be assuming too much about the status of EVA as a standard scheme:
"Notice that both of these words end with 'why' [y]....."
"No, that's a 'nine' [9]!"
"You mean 'gee' [g], don't you?"
"Excuse me, but that's actually *two* glyphs...."
So how have people handled this kind of situation in the past, either in formal presentations or just in informal conversation over coffee or phone?
I could imagine devising a reasonably unambiguous pronunciation of EVA, for example by inserting a glottal stop between adjacent vowels, assigning [q] to /kw/, and so on, but I'm afraid that any unilateral move like that could cause more confusion than it would avert.
Of course EVA doesn't equal Voynichese, and all that. I'm only wondering whether there's any prospect of communicating orally about the text among ourselves as efficiently as EVA lets us communicate about it in writing (no more, no less).
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| herb Bible |
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Posted by: Juan_Sali - 08-06-2022, 02:23 PM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (7)
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The herb section represents the Bible. Previous post with this idea was You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
I will develope it in this thead.
The first folios are the Genesis 1 and 2. I will show in this post the Genesis 1, days one to five of the creation.
Genesis text taken from:
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[1:1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth,
[1:2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.
[1:3] Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
[1:4] And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.
[1:5] God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.
f1r, day 1:
Without drawing. At the benginning there was nothing.
[1:6] And God said, "Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."
[1:7] So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so.
[1:8] God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.
f1v, day 2:
Yellow leaves are the light-Day.
Green leaves are the darkness-Night.
In right and left branches, green and yellow leaves are mixed.
In the middle branch yellow leaves are on the right and green leaves on the left.
[1:9] And God said, "Let the waters under the sky be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear." And it was so.
[1:10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
[1:11] Then God said, "Let the earth put forth vegetation: plants yielding seed, and fruit trees of every kind on earth that bear fruit with the seed in it." And it was so.
[1:12] The earth brought forth vegetation: plants yielding seed of every kind, and trees of every kind bearing fruit with the seed in it. And God saw that it was good.
[1:13] And there was evening and there was morning, the third day.
f2v, day 3
The plant is a water lily or a nenufar, an aquatic plant.
The leave represents the water gathered into one place, the flower represents the dry land.
[1:14] And God said, "Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,
[1:15] and let them be lights in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth." And it was so.
[1:16] God made the two great lights - the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night - and the stars.
[1:17] God set them in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth,
[1:18] to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.
[1:19] And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day.
f3v: day 4.
The leaves have 4 points.
The flowers are painted in dark blue, color used for heaven and God.
The greater flower is the sun, the smaller one is the moon.
[1:20] And God said, "Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the dome of the sky."
[1:21] So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, of every kind, with which the waters swarm, and every winged bird of every kind. And God saw that it was good.
[1:22] God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth."
[1:23] And there was evening and there was morning, the fifth day.
f4v: day 5.
Leaves are birds flying. There are 3 stars and the flower is the moon.
I will appreciate any suggestion relationing herbal folios with passages of the bible.
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| Alignment of orphaned vords |
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Posted by: Anton - 06-06-2022, 11:02 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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I don't remember if we discussed this previously, but this is the matter that I've been thinking of recently.
By "orphaned vords" I mean vords that do not follow the preceding vords immediately, but are preceded by a large gap instead. The quickest example are endings of paragraphs in f1r, sometimes suggested to be "chapter headings".
Again, there must have been some established term for those pieces of script, but, failing to recall it, I quickly invented the handy designation of "orphaned vords".
So, the foremost question is of course why they are orphaned at all. However, I do not touch this question here. Suppose they are for a reason. But the second question is why they are aligned as they are - and they are aligned in a seemingly inconsistent fashion.
Consider f8r. In paragraphs 2 and 3, okokchodg and dchol saim, respectively, are perfectly right-aligned. This looks somewhat "natural", so we could expect other orphaned vords to be aligned in the same fashion. But then in paragraph 1 dcho daiin is not right-aligned, although nothing prevents it to be.
I considered the possibility that the width of the gap must be constant. But neither in plain distance nor in the number of characters that one can fit into, the gap widths in the three paragraphs do not match.
What might be the rule here?
![[Image: image.jpg?ref=f8r&q=f8r-178-732.2000122070312-918-301]](https://voynich.ninja/extractor/image.jpg?ref=f8r&q=f8r-178-732.2000122070312-918-301)
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| Devotio Moderna |
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Posted by: R. Sale - 05-06-2022, 10:47 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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Rrrrriped from the pages of history.... It's new to me.
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It's interesting for several reasons. It fits the VMs C-14 chronology. Its geography is a reasonable possibility.
There were Sisters of the Common Life as well as Brothers. And it is noted in several articles that they were in the book trade. Plus they had their own linguistic dialect Ijssellands.
More likely, perhaps, than the Sisters of Rum (Ottoman and Sufi connections).
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| Word entropy in reverse direction |
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Posted by: Emma May Smith - 02-06-2022, 12:09 AM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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On this page of Rene's site (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) the conclusion is that Voynich words have similar entropies to comparator languages, but that the entropy is distributed differently. Specifically, there is less information at the start of a word but more toward the end.
My question is whether this conclusion is only for left to right reading or would be true when examined in either reading direction. What I mean is this: do Voynich words have more information specifically on the right hand side (so toward the end in normal reading direction) and less information on the left, or is it that any 4-gram within a word would have a higher level of information?
(I guess it is the latter, as many words are longer than 4 characters.)
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| Duns' cap |
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Posted by: R. Sale - 30-05-2022, 08:33 PM - Forum: Imagery
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An interesting bit of historical etymology I saw recently, that might connect with the VMs. As usual, the devil is in the details. So, let's look at the details and try to find the little devil. And there he is, on f67v1, in the lower right.
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It's the smiley face with the pointy hat.
John Duns Scotus, (d. 1308) was a medieval philosopher and theologian on a level with Aquinas and Ockham. Incidental to all that, he is known to have promoted a sort of long, conical hat - a "thinking cap". He taught at Oxford and Paris, then briefly at Cologne, before he died.
By the mid-1600s, he was somewhat too conservative and out of date. And this is when the change took place from Duns' cap to dunce cap. However, from the perspective of the VMs C-14 parchment dates, this change had not happened yet. So, the cap must be considered in a favorable interpretation, and potentially a subtle reference to Duns Scotus, himself.
A couple other points of potential connection. Duns Scotus was a Franciscan, as was Colette of Corbie, with her mystical ring and cross. And it is said that perhaps the most influential part of his theology was his defense of the immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary, herself. So, this is another item in the VMs that has a strong but subtle connection with the rising tide of Mariology that was happening throughout the early 1400s.
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| New Blog post: "Mysterious Steganography"- a Damning Observation |
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Posted by: proto57 - 27-05-2022, 03:58 PM - Forum: Provenance & history
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I've written a new blog post about a serious problem with the usually assumed provenance of the "Letters". It lies in the differential between what would have been "mysterious" and "unknown" to the men of the 17th century letters... Baresch, Marci, Moretus, Kinner, and Kircher... and what was still mysterious and unknown to scholars in 1912, when the Voynich was first announced to the world.
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Rich SantaColoma
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