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| 1665/66 Marci Discussion: Locked? |
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Posted by: proto57 - 09-04-2020, 02:31 PM - Forum: Provenance & history
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Hi David Jackson: If you remember, back when you started this forum, my worry was that the purpose would be to limit discussion, by censorship, to only those topics that you chose... as opposed to the open and free discussions found elsewhere, such as on my voynich.net mailing list.
You strongly objected, and told me that there would be no censorship, and that your readers would be allowed to express all opinions and viewpoints, as long as no one was being rude, or threatening, or whatever.
But now you cut off the discussion on the thread I started? You wrote,
"OK, without being rude, ReneZ here develops theories based upon the physical evidence he has seen and handled.
Everything else in this thread is a hypothesis that is based the posters opinion of third party evidence.
Let's stick to concrete evidence people, instead of building castles in the air.
Thread locked before it become contentious."
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If by "contentious" you mean negative or nasty in any way, it is clear this didn't happen, and was not happening. But if by "contentious" you mean further disagreement, then of course... that is what free discussion is about. I came back to the thread to continue that discussion, and was very surprised to see it locked. I hope you will reconsider, and unlock that thread, and place the below responses from me an others over there, if you choose... or let the discussion continue, here.
Ironically, I only the other day suggested to the writers of a new book on the Voynich, that your ninja forum link be added to that book, so that people could come here and see the free discussion that you promised, and convinced me was the case. Was that a mistake?
Rich.
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| Codicology |
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Posted by: -JKP- - 08-04-2020, 07:42 AM - Forum: Physical material
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I usually avoid Pinterest (I prefer to go to original sites) and generally screen it out of my Web searches, but one of my searches included a hit on the Schoyen Collection (which always catches my eye) and that led me to this Pinterest page. For those interested in codicology and the VMS provenance, it has many interesting examples of medieval binding, including some that are limp vellum (like the VMS).
I've done some bookbinding. I have an antique book press and stitching frame. I haven't done a lot of it and it's a craft that takes years to master, but being a bibliophile, I wanted to learn something about it because it gives you a better appreciation for what you are seeing (or holding, if you are handling an antique book) and for how it was constructed, so I very much enjoyed this collection of images:
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| [split] About knowing the history of Voynich research |
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Posted by: Koen G - 07-04-2020, 11:30 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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[EDIT: this post started a tangent in the previous thread about being able to discern where old ideas are coming from etc, I thought I'd better split it into its own thread]
Marco's image reminds me of Brian Cham's curve-line system. I'm not entirely on board with his system per se, but the underlying observations are valuable.
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| Is [a] always [a]? |
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Posted by: Koen G - 05-04-2020, 10:39 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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Background: Ever since I got into entropy (thanks Anton) I've had my eye on "minim clusters" like [ain] and [aiin].
Last year I You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. with modifying EVA transcriptions in order to increase entropy. The most effective measure I was able to find is to replace things like [aiin] by a single character. For example, [dain] becaomes [d1], [daiin] becomes [d2]. This measure alone bridges 1/3 of the gap between an EVA transcription and a low-entropy normal text.
(Side note: combining different measures has unpredictable results, and after a while there are diminishing returns. Solving one entropy issue just shifts the problem to others).
Now, I know there are exceptions, but this thread is not about those. The general tendency is that EVA-[i] or [ii] is preceded by [a] and followed by [n] (and to a much lesser extent [r]).
In other words, if I say EVA-[ii], you can pretty safely add [a] and [n]. This is why entropy is low, because the glyphs are so predictable.
Now a few days ago, Lisa Fagin Davis You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that "When [a] is followed by a minim, it ligates to the top of the minim. When [a] is followed by just about anything else, it does not ligate. But until we know what language this represents, we can’t know if this rule is paleographic or linguistic."
All these examples are from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. :
Naamloos-1 kopiëren.jpg (Size: 63.54 KB / Downloads: 279)
The ligation looks rather variable, but that's not the point. What I wonder is: how can we know whether these are all variations of the glyph EVA calls [a]? Don't some of these look more like a bunch of minims with a loop on the left and right? Like an "m"? In the same way "anchiton" could also be "michiton"? If [aiin] really contains the separate unit [a], then why is it always there? Might what we call [a] preceding minims just be what the VM minim looks like when it's not preceded by a minim? Like an onset flourish? How can we know?
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| Greek Influences in the VMS glyphs? |
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Posted by: -JKP- - 04-04-2020, 06:54 AM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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Maybe we should have a thread specific to this topic.
Note, this thread is not about Newbold's theory (he thought the tiny variations in each VMS glyph was coded in Greek shorthand). I believe the VMS text is much too small to encode any kind of shorthand at the scale he suggested. This is to discuss whether there are Greek influences in the VMS glyphs.
I've said rather frequently that I think the VMS glyphs are primarily inspired by Latin, but I think there may also be a smaller percentage of Greek influences, so maybe we should discuss whether they exist and what they might be.
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Here are my ideas about it. Some are quite speculative, some I feel more strongly about.
1. Fairly speculative but maybe something to consider. Glyph order in the 57v chart 2nd ring.
I posted this idea a few years ago on another thread, but I think there might be Greek influences for the glyph order in the chart on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . I DON'T feel strongly about this, it's just a pattern I noticed. The chars in this pic (except for the 6th and 10th) actually match Latin shapes better than Greek, but maybe the ORDER of the characters was partly inspired by the Greek alphabet rather than the Latin alphabet. Greek alphabets were sometimes included in Latin manuscripts.
57vGreek.png (Size: 124.16 KB / Downloads: 395)
If you start at the end of the alphabet (with omega) and then wrap around to the beginning, then you can get omega alpha beta gamma delta. This can be seen in the second ring from the outside by rotating old-style alpha (cipher alphabets frequently have rotated letters) and by adding a tail to gamma. The lack of a bottom-bar on delta is actually not uncommon (I have collected samples). Some scribes wrote delta without the crossbar.
It's not a full alphabet and they appear to have been either Latinized or cipherized. I'm leaning toward Latinized, but maybe the order of some of the Latin chars is inspired by Greek letters with roughly similar shapes. Note that the 6th character can be found in Coptic Greek (and sometimes also in scientific manuscripts). It's not a full alphabet, but if the VMS creator were aiming for secrecy, using a full alphabet that follows the Greek alphabet would be a sure giveaway. As I said, speculative, but I thought I'd put it out there.
2. Greek Abbreviation Symbol. The staircase symbol with a dot is a rare character in the VMS. It is a shape-mate for the Greek abbreviation for "atto". I've never seen this shape in a Latin-character manuscript and Latin abbreviations don't usually have this shape. I've only seen it in charts of Greek abbreviations, but there are a few abbreviations in Greek that are based on this general idea of a staircase+dot, so it might be a specific class of abbreviation.
3. Monogrammed/Overlaid Letters. I've blogged about benching and stacking in Greek. It was a common concept in Greek that didn't carry over into Latin scribal conventions the same way as some of the other conventions, but Latin scribes were familiar with common combinations like chi-rho and pi-rho and they sometimes used the Greek symbols, instead of writing out the words in Latin or in Latinized Greek. They also occasionally used the Greek numeral conventions (which were stacked and overlaid) to write large numbers in the margins, instead of using Roman numerals (I have posted examples in blogs).
4. Greek Concepts that Maybe Inspired Gallows Characters. Stacking and benching were common concepts in Greek letters and numerals (they had several number systems). The concept was not as common in Latin, but perhaps the VMS character cPh is a Latinized shape-mate inspired by Greek pi-rho or chi-rho (the Greek letter rho looks like Latin P). mu-rho was also stacked to write numbers.
5. The upper-right loops. It's possible there are ligatures and/or abbreviations in the VMS glyph-set. For example ch might be a ligature, sh might be a ligature or abbreviation (or both). In Latin, y, g, and m are common abbreviations. Many of these concepts were borrowed from Greek.
But there is a notable difference between Greek and Latin conventions... In Greek it was very common to attach a loop to the upper-right of a letter to add "e" or "o" and this convention was only partially used by Latin scribes. Latin scribes frequently added the small "o" to abbreviations like grado, modo, and quarto but they rarely added it to letters with ascenders as was common in Greek. This is probably because the Latin alphabet doesn't lend itself as easily to this specific convention.
As an example, if we look at Voynich characters t and p, each one has a loop on the upper right. This is not common in Latin UNLESS the loop has a tail to turn it into the (very common) "-is" abbreviation. In Greek, adding a loop (without a tail) to the upper right was very common. Adding a loop to the Greek letter pi, for example, turned it into "pe" or "po" or "peri". In Latin, if you added a small loop to a "T" (without a tail), it was usually an embellishment, not an abbreviation. If you added a loop AND a tail to a "T", it was an abbreviation for "-tis" (and its homonyms).
That's probably enough for one post.
This is circumstantial evidence, but taken together, perhaps the VMS creator had some exposure to Greek or adapted some ideas from Greek scribal conventions to invent the VMS glyph-set. The glyphs are mostly Latin, but some of the concepts appear to be Greek. Many Latin scribes and some university students (probably those studying the classics) had a basic familiarity with Greek characters even if they didn't know Greek.
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| A matter of scale |
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Posted by: R. Sale - 03-04-2020, 07:38 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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I don't contribute much to this discussion, because my interest has been in the VMs illustrations and the illustrations have much to say. They do lead to connections with the language, i..e. the written text.
Linguistic analysis of the words (vords), the symbols (glyphs), and the structure often look promising, but still come up empty. The attempt to take the text apart gives us answers and information, but it hasn't worked to find a solution.
On another level of scale N. Pelling proposed a 'block' paradigm. It assumes the overall pattern on a page, where two examples of written text present a similar appearance, could be based on line length, and having a concise and fixed structure, like a poem. The difficulty is finding the candidate on either the VMs side or the external source.
There is an intermediate scale between these two extremes. This is a paradigm based on the patterns of vords within a specific line of text. A task of great difficulty for an entire manuscript, except that the VMs illustrations provide a highly qualified candidate.
The text in the outer ring of VMs White Aries has several qualities to recommend it. There is a most unusual patterned marker (Stolfi's 'start here' marker) in the text ring. This gives the text segment a starting point, a beginning and an end, a fixed and finite length. The selection of the text is reinforced by the position and nature of the associated human figures (Fieschi popes). The internal structure of the text, with the number of repeated vords makes this segment of text unique in the VMs Zodiac sequence. There is the also sequence of word presentation and repetition. The repetition of vords two or three times corresponds with the pairing paradigm presented in the medallions of the first five houses of the 'strange' VMs Zodiac sequence and also seen elsewhere. Plus the text segment contains a particular XYX marker. Something equivalent to 'time after time' or 'again and again' or 'A and B and C', or various other possibilities, with the middle vord repeated also.
The failure here is obvious. What is lacking is the discovery of possible examples of external candidates with similar patterns of internal repetition. If the investigation depends on the recovery of traditional terminology and traditional interpretation, then the text source should be traditional as well.
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| Mark Knowles' theories of pharma and other labels |
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Posted by: Mark Knowles - 01-04-2020, 01:44 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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Having spent quite a lot of time recently looking into this area of the Voynich botanical labels and having spent some time studying Voynich labels as a whole I would reiterate that if one looks at this question through the lens of someone familiar with diplomatic ciphers of the early 15th century then certain explanations present themselves. The key features of ciphers of that time was the use of nulls, homophones and a glossary. Now in general nulls correspond to nonsense/meaningless text. Likewise homophones correspond to the scope for identical words being spelled in completely different ways. A glossary could apply in the context of rare symbols corresponding to specific words. I described before elsewhere how a diplomatic cipher key could be modified in a minor way to use glyph strings as an example of this.
The idea of a preponderance of null words i.e. filler text is something I have also addressed elsewhere. I am not yet persuaded by the idea that all the text is meaningless, but I find the idea that there is a significant amount of filler text hard to avoid.
In the past when I have mentioned ciphers the response has tended to be that the Voynich doesn't fit exactly with standard ciphers of the time, something I agree with now and did then, therefore it is said that it cannot be a cipher. However it is perfectly possible that it is a cipher highly influenced by cipher techniques of the time, but with some differences.
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