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| [split] A Proposed Mapping of the Voynich Alphabet to an Indo-European Language |
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Posted by: bi3mw - 06-09-2020, 11:37 AM - Forum: News
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Meanwhile there are works which refer directly to the publications of Cheshire. Here a paper as an example:
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Quote:This study made use of Dr. Cheshire’s work and analysis of Folios 1v - 6r in his ten paper series of the Voynich Manuscript. We would like to thank him for reviewing our paper and provide wonderful feedback.
One can hardly believe it.
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| What apparently inactive researcher would you most like to see return? |
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Posted by: RenegadeHealer - 04-09-2020, 05:29 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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There sure are a lot of researchers who come and go who are not at all missed. But which ones who've come and apparently gone do you wish had stuck around?
Jorge Stolfi is apparently no longer involved with VMs research, but his ghost is still very much present here. I was not involved in the VMs scene when he was active, but from what I can gather from current discussion, Stolfi's work is the equivalent of what's known as a "sleeper hit" in the movie industry: lukewarmly received upon its first release, but gradually more appreciated with time. I also compare Stolfi's "presence in his absence" to the character of John Galt in Ayn Rand's novel Atlas Shrugged. In both cases, the man's absence is controversial and regarded bitterly, because it is case-in-point of a systemic problem which drove him away, and could very well drive other great people away too. Again, I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm only echoing what I have picked up over a couple of years of reading this forum and feeling the vibes here. For what it's worth, I really enjoyed Jorge Stolfi's webpage, and I come back to sections of it, looking for inspiration. But I have the advantage of hindsight; I would like to say that I would have been one of Stolfi's supporters against his critics when he first published his work, but I don't know because I wasn't there. It would be really awesome if Prof Stolfi were to resurface, comment on some of the more recent developments in VMs studies, and pick up where he left off with his work on the text.
What other VMs researchers do you sorely miss, and wish would come back and continue working on the manuscript and offering their thoughts?
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| New C14 calibration curve |
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Posted by: Anton - 31-08-2020, 09:30 PM - Forum: Provenance & history
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Just read on FB that the new C14 calibration curve for Northern hemisphere has been released, named IntCal20.
So I wonder whether that would introduce any changes into the VMS dating results (most probably it would not).
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| Equation analogy as an approach to the VMS text |
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Posted by: RobGea - 28-08-2020, 06:17 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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Equation analogy as an approach to the VMS text
Pondering upon what the underlying text would look like when/if a solution is ever found,
an analogy occurred to me as a way to think about the VMS text and all its statistical properties.
It maybe useful, maybe not, anyway for what it's worth here it is.
Imagine that we have an equation with "script_method" on one side and "underlying_text" on the other.
We treat the 2 methods as additive to result in the VMS text with all its peculiarities.
(script_method ) + ( underlying_text ) = VMStext
For instance:
underlying_text = Classical Latin prose
script_method = voynich font ( here by font i mean mapping latin letters to voynich glyphs )
( voynich font ) + ( Classical Latin prose ) = VMStext
Then we could give each term a number like this:
For the statistical properties of the VMS text we assign say a 7,
as using the voynich font is a basic script_method we assign it a 1,
and our underlying_text is Classical latin in prose so we give that a 1,
then we get (1) + (1) = 7 quite simply the sum does not add up.
However hard we try, any attempt to read the VMStext as Classical latin mapped simply 1-1 with Voynich glyphs results in gibberish.
Now armed with our imaginary equation,
there are 2 ways open to us to increase the Voynichness ( ie.statistical properties ) of the result.
<.> Increase the complexity of the script_method.
- Invoke obfuscation or cipher techniques;
e.g. the addition of nulls - glyphs or words that act as filler, they have no inherent meaning within the text.
e.g. Nomenclators - where a plaintext entire word is substituted for a voynich word (vord).
- Parse the glyphs in different ways;
e.g. Reading the ligatures as characters in their own right.
- Abbreviations and shorthand.
- Et cetera
<.> On the other side of our imaginary equation we can modify the underlying_text.
- Select languages that themselves exhibit some voynichness;
e.g. Hawaiian for its low entropy.
e.g. Semitic languages for their anagrammability and word length.
- Particular styles of text;
e.g. Poems, Songs.
e.g. Hymns, Chants, Liturgies.
- Et cetera
We could then for instance,
try a 1-1 mapping as our script_method and take a language like Hawaiian as our underlying_text and because of its lower entropy we give it a higher score than latin say a 4 ,
then to increase the term further we could say our underlying_text is a poem in Hawaiian with +1 for using alliteration
and +1 for a syncopated rythmic structure resulting in a total score for the underlying_text of 6.
Giving us a result of (1)+(6)=7 in our imaginary equation.
And in this case by only increasing the complexity of our underlying_text we have arrived at something that
could then equal the complexity of the VMStext.
And because it is a simple sum type of equation the same can be done to the left side,
where we could include nulls and nomenclators to increase the script_method complexity.
Or again we could increase the complexity of script_method and underlying_text at the same time.
Of course all this is imaginary and no such equation exists it is just an aid to think about the problem.
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| Storehouses of parchment |
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Posted by: -JKP- - 27-08-2020, 01:20 PM - Forum: Physical material
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I have been assuming that if there were storehouses of parchment in the late medieval period, they were probably in scriptoria.
This is partly true, but I didn't know that often the person commissioning manuscripts was expected to supply the parchment. I discovered this gradually, over the years by reading historical works that discuss early manuscripts and scriptoria. The patron may have purchased skin from parchmenters as it was needed.
This may have changed when the printing press changed the creation and availability of books. There was probably a point where people realized handwritten manuscripts would soon be obsolete and parchment would no longer be needed. Some may have been redistributed or used for other purposes. I imagine this transition probably happened sometime in the late 15th or early 16th century.
So, it's an interesting piece of medieval trivia... if you want scribes to create a copy or a new work... bring the skin. Also, in the early medieval period they used the Greek word for calligrapher to describe scribes, but gradually other words were used as scribes specialized (e.g., notaries).
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| What would a "solution" look like over history? |
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Posted by: MichelleL11 - 26-08-2020, 04:16 PM - Forum: Provenance & history
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Obviously, our generation, with their quest for their "15 minutes" has littered the Internet with "solutions" to the Voynich manuscript. Thus, in the future, if the internet or something like it stays "up," researchers could find these and take these into account (for better or worse).
But I realized, since I have never studied the history of science in anything more than a spectator's way, I did not know how would a potential solver at various times over the history of the Voynich go about disseminating their ideas.
I suppose you could look to other well known "decryptions" at different time periods and see how those were made known. I'll look into this (I imagine there is general scholarly work about this in the history of science field), but I would be interested in such parallels that other board members can provide off the top of their heads.
Are there times during the existence of the Voynich that such publication would be dangerous, suppressed, or otherwise result in no public disclosure? Perhaps for similar reasons that the manuscript might have been encrypted? But obviously not necessarily directly parallel, as I am looking for something in a different time period than during its creation.
This is clearly speculation, but can we be certain that all the places that a possible solution could be available have been completely tapped out?
Certainly there are both public and non-public places that haven't been examined . . . remember we don't have the "Voynich" key word to search on -- LOL.
I would circle back to my suggestion before -- IF there is a key that was not publicized, if it still exists, the most likely place for it would be someplace where the manuscript has been physically. That's why it is good to know.
Interested in hearing what others might have to say about this.
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| What if the images are entirely like the text, various scenarios. |
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Posted by: Koen G - 26-08-2020, 09:31 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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This thread is meant as a thought experiment. I like to do those as an exercise to expand the box that inevitably starts to form around my VM thoughts. It is not about what we believe to be possible, but about what we could expect under certain conditions.
I usually think from images to text, that is, if we can understand the imagery perfectly, we should in theory have a better shot at understanding the text. But what if we turn this around? There are various scenarios for what the text is like. What should we expect of the images if - just for this exercise - we assume that they are the same as the text, informed by the same principles? For example:
- The text could be an illiterate culture/language's first attempt at writing in its own writing system. In this case, and remember that for this exercise we imagine that the images belong to the same sphere as the text, what would we expect? Every culture has an artistic component, this was already true in the Stone Age. So we would expect part of that artistic tradition to shine through in the imagery. If we take into account the stylistic properties of Voynichese, chances are this culture is not European - probably Asian? So given the premise of this thread, the imagery should have Asian influences. But it doesn't, at least not in an in-your-face way. So if we have Asian text, with non-Asian images, what happened?
- A one-to-one simple substitution of a European language. Just kidding, this is an unlikely option.
- A more complex cipher. I use the word cipher here with purpose, because it carries within it the intention to obfuscate. If the same principles apply to the imagery, this would mean it is obfuscated as well, it does not speak plainly. Whether this is done out of fear, secrecy, exercise or boredom doesn't really matter. If the imagery is like a complex cipher, what can we expect of it?
- Nonsense made to look like it has meaning. In this case, given the condition that text and imagery are the same, both would be like a well-constructed Rorschach test.
I probably missed a few?
With the VM, we are facing the longest, most enigmatic pre-modern undeciphered text, and its imagery is equally hard to understand. If the entire MS is the product one one mind (or, as we know with near certainty now, a collective of minds), then may similar principles underlie the strangeness of both?
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![[Image: image.jpg?q=f101v1_102r2-1638-86-322-308]](https://voynich.ninja/extractor/image.jpg?q=f101v1_102r2-1638-86-322-308)