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| Wallpaper patterns |
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Posted by: R. Sale - 10-03-2020, 10:10 PM - Forum: Imagery
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I've recently run into some illustrations that reminded of an older investigation.
Many of the earlier examples of medieval illustrations show various backgrounds with different patterns. There is one pattern of particular of interest to VMs investigations.
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There are several illustrations in BL Royal 16 G. VI that add to the example above. f352v, f360, and f440v
This ms. is a version of Chroniquesde France ou de Saint Denis produced in Paris between 1332-1350
Additionally there is an illustration in Yates Thompson 10 f.20 with a similar background and an interesting cloud band.
javascript:popUp('ILLUMINBig.ASP?size=big&IllID=5522')
This is an Apocalypse MS from Paris c. 1370-c. 1390. It also contains an Agnus Dei image, with certain similarities to the one from Liege (BNF Fr. 130996, but also with obvious differences.
The cumulative timeline shows the use of this pattern in Paris in the 1300s, and in the Netherlands in the early 1400s, and that would probably be the Duchy of Burgundy. And while the provenance overall is not highly specific, it is an independent factor and it does clearly include, rather than exclude, the sphere of Burgundy - post 1430 hypothesis.
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| The incompatibility of Voynichese with natural human language |
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Posted by: RenegadeHealer - 09-03-2020, 08:17 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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"The text of the Voynich Manuscript is incompatible with natural human language." I have seen some variation on this conclusion in a lot of recent papers and commentary. This belief seems very much in vogue in the past ~10y, especially among scientists well experienced in wielding statistical tools to analyze information. I wouldn't say it's a consensus yet. But it does seem to be an increasingly popular view among VMS scholars who tolerate absolutely no deviation from the scientific method. Should this incompatibility come to be a consensus among those who truly understand the properties of Voynichese, a serious belief that Voynichese represents some way to write some natural human language will become an immediate indicator of someone who needs to do much more reading, and drop any cranky preconceptions, before adding anything of value to the conversation.
I have no background in coding or information science. My knowledge of statistics is rudimentary, and my knowledge of linguistics is only as a lifelong amateur enthusiast. In reading the latest by Alin Jonas, JKP, Marco Ponzi, Torsten Timm, Brian Cham, Donald Fisk, and a few others, I tried my best to wrap my head around the metrics of natural language specimens, and how these authors' specimens differ markedly from those of the VMS. I've been impressed with these efforts, and think all of these authors make a good case that Voynichese as a vessel capable of holding natural human linguistic communication is, as yet, an unsupported premise. This conclusion doesn't go unchallenged, but I've noticed that increasingly, supporters of this incompatibility are comfortable meeting most challenges with some variation of, "You don't really understand what you're arguing against." or "You don't know what you don't know." I know that I don't know. I could believe that the compatibility vs. incompatibility of Voynichese with natural human language is a false equivalence, and that proponents of compatibility are only numerous and vocal because of how few people have truly taken the time to understand how the book's glyphs are arranged. On the other hand, I'm open to the possibility that proponents of incompatibility are something like an ideological echo chamber, who reach the same conclusion only because they start from the same set of assumptions, and don't keep company with researchers who don't share those same assumptions. To someone who isn't really qualified to argue either side, it feels like a bit of a Rashomon effect.
Reddit.com has a forum called You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. The idea is admitting your ignorance, and humbly inviting an expert to provide friendly, simplified, and layperson-accessible explanations to technical questions. It seems that if Voynichese is highly unlikely to represent natural human language, there should be a way of explaining this to fledgling researchers and enthusiasts, in a way that any person of average intelligence could grasp. Incompatibalists, I know you're very tired of trying to explain your conclusion to would-be Voynicheros who just don't want to hear it. So just a link is fine. If incompatibility is indeed robustly supported, what post or other short piece of writing should be promoted as required reading for newbies who *do* want to hear it, and *don't* want to waste their time building a theory that's already been duly ruled out?
One important consideration of this issue, is what it would take to falsify the statement "Voynichese is incompatible with natural human language". To the benefit of anyone mounting a sincere and well-informed challenge to the incompatibility idea, it's a negative statement. All that's really needed to falsify a negative statement is one good contrary example. For example, if I say "There are no black swans," all one has to do is find me one black swan to prove me wrong. Similarly, all someone would have to do to falsify "Voynichese is incompatible with natural human language" is find one example of human writing (which can be reliably and replicably converted to human speech and vice versa), which measures similarly to Voynichese on all of the relevant metrics. This is easier said than done of course. It's not helped by an unfortunate paradox: Those most qualified to perform and interpret meaningful statistical analysis on written language are also likely to have acquired these skills through an education that put blinders on their ideas of typical written language, that they may not even be aware of. Human language of the written kind is used in a lot of ways that have no literary merit and seldom make it into the historical record, after all.
In summary, I think the arguments for Voynichese's incompatibility with natural human language are not as widely and well understood as they deserve to be, and I don't think that's entirely due to willful ignorance. How can this viewpoint be better worded and promulgated, so that anyone out there with the chops to dispute it (or confirm it!) understands what they're replying to?
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| The Textual Work of August Walla, mentally disabled artist |
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Posted by: Ben Trovato - 09-03-2020, 04:53 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (49)
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I would like to bring your attention to the Austrian artist August Walla (1936-2001), who suffered from schizophrenia and spent most of his time in psychiatric institutions (or at least under medical supervision). There, he was encouraged to express himself artistically, and became a member of the “Gugging artists” who received praise and appreciation from modern painters and art collectors. His works now are on display in several museums. His life, and also his clinical record, are well documented.
Walla’s style involved the inclusion of text into his paintings. Some are pure text, but most of them combine text and figurative illustration. In those cases, the text is somewhat integrated into the picture and used to fill any voids between the figures, obviously following aesthetic principles as much as its inherent “meaning”.
Some of his texts are (kind of) understandable and some are not, some appear to be meaningless. To him, they were undoubtedly meaningful. In some sense, he used his art to communicate; in some sense, to follow an urge to express himself and his religious and cosmological beliefs (which are actually quite complex). Very likely, he attributed some magical component to his work.
He “chose” painting as his form of artistic expression because he knew this from his early education, and because was encouraged by his environment. In Gugging, the necessary materials were also supplied.
In his extensive oeuvre, a small number of topics prevail – family, religion, politics. Single works as well as series of his works are extremely repetitive. He even will repeat single words or letters for a couple of times.
He invented “languages”, using dictionaries. Also the words he invents are used very repetitively, or he combines them to create „new“ words. Walla even created a rune-like set of characters that he used occasionally. But mostly he wrote “plain text”, using capitals and an idiosyncratic punctuation.
Some of his work reads like this (and I will deliberately start with one that is not really representative, but really touching: #1, then introduce some “weird” ones: #2-5 and finally some “meaningless” examples: #6-8).
Quote:[Text1]
Ewigkeitvorherzeit von Ewigkeitzeit.?
WELTALLENDEFINSTERNIS UND DIE EWIGKEITENDEZEITRIESENUHR MIT ZEIT VOR DER EWIGKEIT UND MEINEM VERJÜNGERUNGSWUNSCH 11 JAHRE JUNG ZU WERDEN.?
Interlinear translation:
Eternitybeforetime of Eternitytime.? UNIVERSEENDDARKNESS AND THE ETERNITYENDTIMEGIANTCLOCK WITH TIME BEFORE THE ETERNITY AND MY REJUVENATINGWISH 11 YEARS YOUNG TO BECOME.?
Quote:[Text2]
Walla August.!
BIN DER HEILIGE GOTT SAÄRIL.! GOTT SAÄRILL.! GOTT ALLAH.
SONNE HINTERM BISAMBERG IN DEN BEZIRK KORNEUBURG AN DER DONAU?
SARARILL UND ALLAH.! KPÖ I 1 II 2 I 1 III 3
Walla August.! AM THE HOLY GOD SAÄRIL.! GOD SAÄRIL.! GOD ALLAH! SUN BEHIND BISAMBERG IN THE COUNTY OF KORNEUBURG [home of August Walla] BY THE DANUBE? SARARILL AND ALLAH.! KPÖ [=Communist Party of Austria] I 1 II 2 I 1 III 3
Quote:[Text3]
STERN, ADOLFE. STERN, MEMMAK.? STERN, GUURU.? STERN, MERKUR. STERN, PANKI. STERN MARS.! WENUS. ERDEN.! SATURN. URANUS.! BLUTO.! SONNE. MOND.! STERNE.
Stern, pl. Sterne = star; Erde = Earth. This was written on a window pane.
Quote:[Text4]
HHH
ICH BRAVER HALBTEUFEL DANKE, DEM GOTTESSOHN JESUS CHRISTUS WENN ICH HEIMKOMME NACH KORERNEUBURG
Ich lobe solchen braven Menschen die heimbringen dem braven Burschen August Walla.!
HALBTEUFLEIN AUGUSTIN ALOIS WALLA GEORG.! TEUFEL MIT BLONDEN HAAREN, IST EIN SÜSSER STROLCH, ALS STRITZIBUBE.!
Sepp.! Sepp.!
GESPENST.! SÜSSER BRAVER STRITZIBUBE IST DA GLÜCKBRINGENTER SO DUNKELBLONDER KIRCHENEHRLOSER FREUNDLICHER TEUFEL ALS SO HALBTEUFEL HIER.!
In the following translations, I had to smooth some things out for the sake of readability:
HHH I GOOD HALFDEVIL THANK, THE SON OF GOD JESUS CHRIST WHEN I COME HOME TO KORNEUBURG. I praise such good men who bring home the good lad August Walla.! HALFDEVIL AUGUSTIN ALOIS WALLA GEORG.! DEVIL WITH BLOND HAIR, IS A SWEET HOODLUM, A RASCAL.! Sepp.! Sepp.! [=short for Joseph] GHOST.! SWEET GOOD RASCAL IS HERE LUCKY SO DARK BLOND CHURCHDISHONOURABLE FRIENDLY DEVIL AS SO HALFDEVIL HERE.!
Quote:[Text5]
+ WALLA AUGUST + SO BILDL FÜR BRAVN BRAVN BRAVN HERR KURT HOFBAUER + BILDL EIN BRAVER BUNTER PAPAGEI + DU LIEBER GOTT ALLES BÖSE KOMMT WIEDER, UND ALLES BÖSE VERGEHT WIEDER + PAPAGEI MARIA + 1997.! +17
+ WALLA AUGUST + SUCH PIC FOR GOOD GOOD GOOD MISTER KURT HOFBAUER + PIC A GOOD COLORFUL PARROT + YOU GOOD GOD ALL EVIL RETURNS AGAIN, AND ALL EVIL PERISHES AGAIN + PARROT MARIA + 1997.! +17
The picture does not show a parrot, but a box of watercolors.
Quote:[Text6]
Jeaobek Jeaobek Adolfe, gpatb autbnaa akgn tb akgntb Adolfe, Gor. Saaahnh jmn Hego Aoxbhego Bocefskoheuheago.?
(all gibberish except for „Adolfe“, which is followed by a swastika)
Quote:[Text7]
KISI KOMISER SAIRE KISI OGUSTO LAP LASTIRMAK KISI KOMISER. SAIRE PUT GOTT, KOF SLAMNÜNYA SAIRE KOF EZELF.! Lied.! KITLEMEK ISLÄM. PUT SAAAHNHX PUT PUT PUT SAAAHNHX.! FAKAT FAKAT MEK ESYA=KOMISER. MEK ESYA, KOMISER.
(all gibberish except for “OGUSTO” which sounds like Italian/Spanish… = August; “GOTT” = God; “Lied” = Song; maybe “ISLÄM”?)
Quote:[Text8]
MELICIDIUM ETTOQUE PÜPUS + ISCRIX + GRÄMEN ET LIQUOR TRUTTANUS MELICIDIUMTRUTTANUS ISCRIX AUGUST + GRYPS + GRYPS COMPOS GRYPSCOMPOS.! CAELESSARARILLH, SARARILLH.!
(Latin. Isn’t it?)
So, if you are still with me, I would like to bring up the question: if we would examine the texts of Walla – especially those which seem to bear no meaning - the same way we examine the VMS, would the results be similar?
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| [split] Line padding, layout, Currier's "groups of letters"... |
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Posted by: Torsten - 28-02-2020, 07:14 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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(26-02-2020, 06:23 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.To me, this gives the appearance of a copy of a source text that also included special symbols, e.g. zodiac or planet signs.
One observation of Currier was: "The ends of the lines contain ... little groups of letters which don't occur anywhere else, and just look as if they were added to fill out the line to the margin" (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
The lines fill out the available space. This is even true for lines with holes (see folios You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and f107v) or slanted and irregular lines (see for instance folio f108v or folios You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and f112v). This means that the author of the text was able to choose the length of the words as needed to fill out the available space. Since the lines are irregular the knowledge about the length of each line was only available while writing the text. Therefore we know for sure that the text was generated during writing and that the scribe was also the author of the text (see also Timm 2015, p. 35).
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| f76r , text-only page in Q13 |
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Posted by: Koen G - 26-02-2020, 10:35 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (16)
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Flicking through the VM pages looking for something else, I came to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and decided to have a closer look. I don't recall a dedicated discussion of this page on the forum, but this may be wrong. Either way this is the kind of page that was discussed extensively in mailing list days, so nothing I say will be new.
Observations:
1. As noted by Glen Claston, this page is a major clue that Q13 is out of order. Since You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is text-only and has a very fancy initial, it was likely first. But even if one would not put it first in the quire, it is hard to deny that this looks like the kind of page that traditionally introduces a new topic or chapter.
2. On this page it is exceptionally obvious that the top line carries more gallows, specifically EVA [p]. I don't often use Voynichese.com, hope this link shows what I mean: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . This reminds of legal documents, where we often see the ascenders on the top line enlarged. Below Burham Cathedral's Magna Carta.
Naamloos-2 kopiëren.jpg (Size: 70.23 KB / Downloads: 226)
Now if this parallel is valid in any way, that somehow gallows are used because this is the top line, then the implications are significant: it would mean that these gallows replace something else that takes up less space.
3. Paragraphs. The top half of the page appears to be one paragraph with signs in the left margin. Below there are three clearly separated paragraphs, with a blank space on the last line and a larger gallow as the first character. Only the last paragraph has a rather strange beginning.
Naamloos-4 kopiëren.jpg (Size: 194.64 KB / Downloads: 375)
What does this mean? Especially, why start with an uncharacteristically huge paragraph, which apparently requires marginal annotation?
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| Transliteration fun |
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Posted by: ReneZ - 25-02-2020, 06:41 AM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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When I wrote elsewhere:
Quote:In fact I have other things to do that I consider more interesting, and I want to finish first.
no mystery was implied. I am having some 'fun' with the existing transliterations of the Voynich MS. All sorts of interesting things are coming out of that, and they will be written down somewhere soon.
One example is that my own transliteration ('ZL'), which was done in Eva, is much closer to the v101 transliteration which was done in GC's alphabet than to Takeshi Takahashi's transliteration which was again in Eva. I will be able to quantify this at some point.
Another interesting thing lies in the 'rare characters'. We are all used to seeing the examples of what appear to be badly-formed characters, or apparent corrections, in the many posts from Wladimir. But there are other cases as well. Just to give one example... (and referring to this page: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. )
The extended Eva table has a character with code 203, which is also found in the v101 table with code 169.
This is a character that appears exactly once in the entire text, and it is in a clearly 'legible' part, namely the 8th line of f22r.
f22r-8.jpg (Size: 37.18 KB / Downloads: 329)
This is not an isolated case, and it is of interest to try to imagine what the existence of such characters tells us.
The clear execution shows that it was meant to look like this, and it is sufficiently different from other characters to
be sure it is not a 'mistaken identity'.
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| I found something... |
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Posted by: -JKP- - 23-02-2020, 10:19 PM - Forum: Provenance & history
- Replies (58)
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I found something. I used to get excited when this happened.
But now I'm a little older and wiser...
In order to follow it up and verify it, I'll have to drop everything else (including my increasing pile of almost-finished blogs that I want so much to catch up on). It will probably take a few weeks or months, who knows how long it will take, because I need a lot of screensnaps from different sources to illustrate it, ones that I didn't capture when I first saw them months or years ago because I DIDN'T know they might be important.
In the end, it will be only one more brick in the wall. It might be an important brick, at least as far as future Voynich researchers are concerned, but I'm getting a bit discouraged at how LONG it takes to gather all the data and write it up so that other people can appreciate why it is important.
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| Change point analysis of the VM text |
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Posted by: davidjackson - 21-02-2020, 10:04 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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Nothing to do with me, but I just came across this interesting computational analysis on the text. I'm still re-reading and digesting it. The authors wax a little ...lyrical at times.
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Quote:The statistical properties that we have uncovered in the Voynich Manuscript over the past four posts reveal something of its inner structure. It supports, but cannot prove, that the Manuscript is not a hoax, and that it the text is most likely drawn from some natural language.
The changepoint analyses in this post are a powerful tool for identifying evolution and mutation in data, and the demonstrated example of stylometric analysis to Martorel’s Tirant lo Blanc support their use in revealing points of fracture in texts, without reference to the source language.
With specific relevant to the Voynich Manuscript, both the word frequency changepoint and the topic model changepoint suggest that the manscript’s contents shift significantly at some point around Folios 30 to 40. Given the previous assignment of topics based on manual identification of images accompanying the text, this presents a new avenue of investigation for Voynich researchers.
(emphasis mine)
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