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| What initially sparked your interest in Voynich research? |
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Posted by: Mark Knowles - 27-03-2023, 07:58 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (23)
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As an example: Obviously I was curious about the unknown script and its meaning. However my interest was really sparked by seeing the Rosettes folio and particularly the "castle" and also to some extent the other buildings and geographical features that appeared to be illustrated on that page. The page looked like a fantasy map out of Tolkien or some other fantasy literature, however it seemed more likely that it was a real map than something dreamt up by modern fantasy fiction. I found the idea that the page represented a map of some unidentified, but real geographical region, a fascinating one and that by identifying the geographical area one might be able to say something about where the manuscript came from enticing. So that is what drew me initially to be interested in this manuscript.
However, I am curious what really attracted others to this manuscript amongst the uncountable other topics one could devote one's time to.
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| Yet another solution: The Voynich Silenen Comedy |
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Posted by: lelle - 26-03-2023, 07:14 PM - Forum: News
- Replies (33)
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There's a PDF available for download in English.
I couldn't find any description of the methodology in it though.
Since there is a connection to the Heiligenkreuz University, I had high hopes for this decipherment, but from a quick look it seems I got my hopes up in vain.
What do you think?
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| Mapping Voynichese Text to Music |
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Posted by: pfeaster - 22-03-2023, 07:16 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (3)
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The recent discussion You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. drew my attention back to Stephen Gorbos's musical work "Such sphinxes as these obey no one but their master," which is supposed to have drawn somehow on the Voynich Manuscript. I wasn't able to find any other reference to Gorbos on this forum, so I'm guessing his composition hasn't been much discussed here.
But it doesn't seem to have been much discussed anywhere else, either. Gorbos's You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has the audio and a text "about" the composition, but the latter has nothing to say about any particular process by which the Voynich Manuscript fed into it. An You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. on the same site states that the work was "inspired" by the manuscript, but again without providing any specifics about the connection. Finally, an You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. on the Beinecke's own site states that Gorbos "drew from the text," and that the composition was one of several in which composers had "used" Beinecke mansucripts as "inspiration"; but again, no specifics.
That's all the information I was able to find. Does anyone here know anything more?
Based on the sources I've mentioned, my impression is that Gorbos probably used the Voynich Manuscript as "inspiration" in only a very loose sense, and that his composition probably doesn't map content from the Voynich Manuscript to music in any consistent or replicable way. There wouldn't be anything wrong with that; indeed, he never claimed to have done any such thing, as far as I can see. But the fact that his work exists might have discouraged others from playing around with more direct mappings of text to music by creating a false impression that this has already been tried.
The idea has sometimes been put forward that Voynichese is actually a musical notation. If it is, "deciphering" it correctly ought to produce something that sounds conventionally musical, like this audio pulled algorithmically from some plates depicting programs for automatic organ barrels in Athanasius Kircher's Musurgia Universalis (which we can thereby recognize as containing "real" music):
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On the other hand, if a mapping of text to music sounds thoroughly weird and atonal, I'd consider that the equivalent of a "word salad," and strong evidence of a "wrong" solution. For example, I was never able to get any plausible-sounding music out of this plate in Robert Fludd's Utriusque Cosmi Maioris Scilicet et Minoris Metaphysica, Physica atque Technica Historia:
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I don't know whether this means that I haven't hit on the right mode of decipherment yet, or whether the plate is just a mock-up of a medium for automatic music without any "real" musical content in it.
Now, in retrospect, I guess I'd always assumed that Gorbos had done something similar to what I'd done some years back when I tried to play that Robert Fludd plate: choosing a method for mapping an inscription to music and implementing it without worrying about whether the result sounded conventionally musical or not -- or maybe even hoping it wouldn't sound conventionally musical, since that would be boring from an experimental music standpoint. That is, I supposed he'd come up with a musical equivalent of a "word salad" and reveled in it as a musical equivalent to Dadaist poetry.
But now I suspect Gorbos didn't do anything like that after all. So I'm halfway tempted to try it myself.
What I have in mind is an algorithm that would take a standard EVA transcription as input and convert it automatically into music (output in MIDI), ideally handling Voynichese paragraph, line, and word structures in such a way that they're still recognizable as structures. That is, I'd want the mapping to be aurally intelligible in the same way that EVA is visually intelligible (and "almost pronounceable"): listening to the music ought to help us latch onto patterns that are "really there," as an alternative way of experiencing them and puzzling over them.
Some crude initial ideas:
(1) Interpret each Voynichese word as either a single note or a chord, with a particular duration -- but what word elements should represent what? Is there any way to arrange this such that every word would be practically "playable"?
(2) Interpret gallows as clefs, key signatures, or accidentals?
(3) Interpret each paragraph as a separate "piece" of music?
(4) Interpret each line as a stanza-like unit within the "piece" (but through-composed and non-repeating)?
(5) Map the most common word structures to the most "ordinary" musical features -- but how?
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| Has anyone ever tried something different than substitution cipher? |
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Posted by: Rafal - 16-03-2023, 05:55 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (4)
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There were many attempts of reading Voynich manuscript.
Probably I don't know all of them but it seems to me most of them was treating Voynich script like a simple, monoalphabetic, substitution cipher.
This sign is "s", this sign is "a", this sign is "g". and so on. And it never changes through all the text.
My question is - has anyone ever tried something more advanced? Syllabic cipher, Alberti cipher, treating "vords" as numbers and so on?
If there were such attempts, what were the results?
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| Favourite Archive to Visit |
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Posted by: Mark Knowles - 16-03-2023, 04:53 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (9)
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I was wondering if you could teleport to any archive to do Voynich research which would be your top choice; ideally what would be your top 3. Please exclude from your answer the Beinecke as that is an obvious and not revealing answer.
My top two/three are:
1) Milan State Archives
2) Vatican Archives
3) A few possibilities such as:Yale University Library(Not the Beinecke)
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| Vords where count>=5 |
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Posted by: Addsamuels - 14-03-2023, 04:01 AM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (6)
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Vords with more than 5
Code: daiin : 784
chedy : 445
ol : 380
shedy : 380
chol : 331
aiin : 316
qokeey : 302
qokeedy : 301
chey : 292
qokain : 276
dar : 275
or : 271
qokedy : 270
ar : 263
qokaiin : 263
shey : 233
okaiin : 209
s : 197
dain : 194
chor : 193
dal : 188
qokal : 184
dy : 177
okeey : 171
shol : 170
al : 164
otedy : 154
cheey : 151
otaiin : 150
cheol : 145
qokar : 145
okain : 137
oteey : 135
okal : 134
chdy : 132
chckhy : 132
qoky : 132
sheey : 128
okar : 125
otar : 124
chy : 123
saiin : 122
otal : 118
okedy : 117
oty : 110
qol : 108
lchedy : 108
sho : 104
okeedy : 104
oteedy : 103
qokey : 102
sheol : 100
cthy : 98
y : 96
otain : 95
oky : 94
chody : 90
qokol : 90
dol : 89
dair : 87
qotedy : 87
r : 86
cheody : 86
shor : 85
cheor : 79
shy : 78
qotaiin : 78
chcthy : 78
qoty : 78
qoteedy : 75
otol : 74
o : 74
sheedy : 74
dam : 72
okol : 69
ain : 69
char : 66
okeol : 63
qokchy : 63
sain : 62
qotar : 62
cheky : 62
sar : 61
okey : 60
odaiin : 59
qotain : 59
qotchy : 57
shckhy : 57
cheedy : 56
qotal : 56
dor : 55
otey : 55
l : 55
cthol : 54
ykeey : 54
am : 54
oly : 54
raiin : 53
shody : 52
qokchdy : 51
sol : 48
olaiin : 48
cthey : 47
cho : 47
sheody : 47
qokeol : 47
opchedy : 47
checkhy : 47
sor : 46
otam : 46
chodaiin : 44
sal : 44
ykaiin : 43
chear : 43
qodaiin : 43
shdy : 43
air : 43
kaiin : 42
chaiin : 42
otchy : 42
sheor : 42
qoteey : 42
lchey : 42
lkaiin : 42
olkeedy : 41
chal : 40
cthor : 40
oteody : 40
qokchedy : 40
choty : 39
choky : 39
kar : 39
qotol : 39
oteol : 37
okeody : 37
ytaiin : 37
cheo : 37
olkeey : 37
d : 36
otor : 36
olchedy : 36
chedaiin : 36
aiiin : 36
keey : 35
lkeedy : 35
lkeey : 35
lshedy : 35
sheky : 34
taiin : 34
lor : 34
ody : 34
keedy : 34
cheos : 33
chos : 33
ykar : 33
otchdy : 33
otchedy : 33
tedy : 33
dshedy : 33
chees : 32
oraiin : 32
shcthy : 32
qokeody : 32
olkain : 32
lol : 31
ckhy : 31
okor : 31
sheo : 31
otchey : 31
tol : 31
tchedy : 31
sheckhy : 31
sy : 30
okchey : 30
yteey : 30
ches : 30
okchy : 30
chckhey : 30
olkaiin : 30
qopchedy : 30
opchey : 29
okam : 29
yteedy : 29
pchedy : 29
tar : 29
lkar : 29
lkain : 29
shar : 28
oiin : 28
qokor : 28
ykeedy : 28
kedy : 28
otchol : 27
cheal : 27
daly : 27
qokchey : 27
checthy : 27
chedar : 27
ckhey : 26
dchor : 26
dchy : 26
lkedy : 26
or,aiin : 26
chedal : 26
dchedy : 26
qokeeey : 26
qokam : 25
oldy : 25
okchdy : 25
olor : 25
qotor : 24
chl : 24
otody : 24
okeeey : 24
kain : 24
qotchedy : 24
qo : 23
shodaiin : 23
dchol : 23
oaiin : 23
s,aiin : 23
okaly : 23
olchey : 23
olkedy : 23
okchedy : 23
shear : 22
chety : 22
ykchy : 22
qotey : 22
qoaiin : 22
chockhy : 22
sair : 22
cheeky : 22
dary : 22
ytar : 22
ytedy : 22
qotchdy : 22
kol : 21
kchy : 21
she : 21
yty : 21
oteos : 21
olshedy : 21
odar : 20
ckhol : 20
kchol : 20
ldy : 20
ykedy : 20
olky : 20
olkar : 20
chocthy : 19
os : 19
daiiin : 19
shaiin : 19
ycheey : 19
kchey : 19
daldy : 19
qor : 19
shecthy : 19
chdar : 19
okair : 19
otaly : 19
aral : 19
otair : 19
kor : 18
soiin : 18
kchor : 18
tchy : 18
ydaiin : 18
qotchey : 18
qockhy : 18
chain : 18
qokeor : 18
aiir : 18
chedain : 18
lchdy : 18
opchdy : 18
qockhey : 18
lky : 18
qoeedy : 18
ols : 17
tchey : 17
keol : 17
cham : 17
okody : 17
kchdy : 17
daiir : 17
chkaiin : 17
tor : 17
okeor : 17
keody : 17
chdal : 17
chdaiin : 17
qokaly : 17
qokair : 17
rain : 17
pol : 16
chokaiin : 16
tchor : 16
ytchy : 16
chky : 16
dchey : 16
ychey : 16
rol : 16
choly : 16
ykeody : 16
sheal : 16
qopchdy : 16
okees : 16
qokeeody : 16
okeeody : 16
lshey : 16
otchor : 15
ychor : 15
kal : 15
qody : 15
qokchol : 15
okchor : 15
cthody : 15
ytal : 15
olol : 15
dl : 15
okeeol : 15
cheeor : 15
ary : 15
orain : 15
odain : 15
shed : 15
ykeol : 15
opaiin : 15
qoeey : 15
qokeeo : 15
rar : 15
lkchedy : 15
yteody : 14
odal : 14
chokchy : 14
yky : 14
ctheey : 14
om : 14
teey : 14
ory : 14
shedaiin : 14
cheeo : 14
sheeky : 14
ral : 14
cthar : 13
ytain : 13
do : 13
cheodaiin : 13
qokechy : 13
chkeey : 13
ytol : 13
tchol : 13
okchol : 13
chs : 13
dshor : 13
tchdy : 13
olar : 13
chckhdy : 13
aly : 13
shky : 13
kchedy : 13
teedy : 13
lo : 13
teol : 13
olshey : 13
tal : 13
shal : 13
oteeos : 13
sheeol : 13
ror : 13
qokeed : 13
cthaiin : 12
yshey : 12
cphy : 12
ykol : 12
chodar : 12
chan : 12
chty : 12
chom : 12
okeeor : 12
ytchey : 12
ytor : 12
cphol : 12
dcheey : 12
qopchy : 12
qotchol : 12
shocthy : 12
okeal : 12
chkain : 12
chokeey : 12
ypchedy : 12
cthedy : 12
shes : 12
shedal : 12
olkey : 12
k : 12
shedain : 12
tair : 12
olain : 12
otedar : 12
olkal : 12
ykal : 11
shod : 11
sh : 11
shckhey : 11
ky : 11
chkar : 11
dan : 11
qoteol : 11
okary : 11
chory : 11
oees : 11
chotchy : 11
cheeody : 11
ram : 11
ot : 11
qotchor : 11
ytey : 11
okshy : 11
ockhy : 11
sheos : 11
pchedar : 11
opar : 11
checkhey : 11
okeos : 11
ytam : 11
chekal : 11
olcheey : 11
arody : 11
ykeeody : 11
chkal : 11
olkeeey : 11
otees : 11
chckhedy : 11
qotam : 11
orol : 11
olkam : 11
oiiin : 11
oteeody : 11
oar : 11
okeeo : 11
qokshedy : 11
ched : 11
qolchedy : 11
qolchey : 11
lcheey : 11
ychedy : 11
qoteody : 11
pcheol : 10
sam : 10
qodar : 10
doiin : 10
qoor : 10
sheod : 10
chokain : 10
daim : 10
choiin : 10
opchy : 10
qopchey : 10
oldaiin : 10
chcphy : 10
ykain : 10
dshey : 10
rchedy : 10
okeo : 10
chekaiin : 10
oteor : 10
okaldy : 10
qokaldy : 10
laiin : 10
chekar : 10
key : 10
chdam : 10
chotar : 10
qotody : 10
oain : 10
shee : 10
qodain : 10
ckheey : 10
x : 10
otshedy : 10
kair : 9
cphey : 9
octhy : 9
shain : 9
ychol : 9
tey : 9
sary : 9
pchor : 9
choy : 9
olchy : 9
ytchor : 9
daram : 9
ctheol : 9
todaiin : 9
chotaiin : 9
otoldy : 9
dchdy : 9
ly : 9
opal : 9
ytchedy : 9
ar,aiin : 9
oram : 9
chdain : 9
ykchdy : 9
shek : 9
oral : 9
okshey : 9
fchedy : 9
arol : 9
ykeeol : 9
arar : 9
ochedy : 9
dsheol : 9
chdor : 9
f : 9
shety : 9
oteo : 9
qokeeol : 9
tshedy : 9
qokl : 9
sholdy : 8
shos : 8
chodain : 8
chekain : 8
chotey : 8
tody : 8
dals : 8
ckhor : 8
qotcho : 8
ycheor : 8
qokchor : 8
choldy : 8
choaiin : 8
shokchy : 8
shees : 8
okoiin : 8
ytody : 8
qokcho : 8
cheeey : 8
dsheey : 8
ry : 8
ykey : 8
oeees : 8
dsho : 8
ctho : 8
dshy : 8
okear : 8
ykair : 8
ycheol : 8
qokshy : 8
ls : 8
ysheey : 8
qokeeor : 8
qofchedy : 8
qokees : 8
olchdy : 8
qokedar : 8
cheoky : 8
oteeol : 8
okoldy : 8
pchdy : 8
otshey : 8
araiin : 8
okedal : 8
ytchdy : 8
m : 8
cheockhy : 8
dcheol : 8
aldy : 8
otaldy : 8
aram : 8
ykchedy : 8
shedar : 8
shdar : 8
okeeedy : 8
oeedy : 8
yteeody : 8
qokan : 8
sheety : 8
lchy : 8
qolkeedy : 8
lcheedy : 8
tain : 8
polaiin : 8
qockhol : 8
soraiin : 8
okan : 7
okaiir : 7
cthal : 7
g : 7
dalor : 7
chr : 7
qokody : 7
qokshey : 7
qocthy : 7
shoky : 7
ochey : 7
qoeeey : 7
tchody : 7
ty : 7
chotol : 7
sheaiin : 7
opy : 7
chodal : 7
qokod : 7
chod : 7
ch{ckhh}y : 7
dom : 7
r,aiin : 7
olcheol : 7
cheeol : 7
eees : 7
oldar : 7
sshey : 7
odor : 7
chkey : 7
okeeos : 7
chekey : 7
okaiiin : 7
keeody : 7
ockhedy : 7
ycheo : 7
chetey : 7
chcthdy : 7
koldy : 7
otoly : 7
keeey : 7
alaiin : 7
cheodal : 7
or,ain : 7
schedy : 7
polchedy : 7
oteodar : 7
chokey : 7
okedar : 7
cthdy : 7
alol : 7
qodal : 7
cheodain : 7
t : 7
qoar : 7
orar : 7
olkeol : 7
cheom : 7
ykaly : 7
chokal : 7
alor : 7
ockhey : 7
qopaiin : 7
cphedy : 7
chokar : 7
oteeo : 7
tshey : 7
qoly : 7
qoked : 7
yshedy : 7
ycheedy : 7
ol,aiin : 7
lkey : 7
ol,shedy : 7
sheoky : 7
lkchey : 7
lr : 7
lcheol : 7
oror : 7
otodar : 7
qokeo : 7
lkeeey : 7
teody : 6
ydy : 6
qoy : 6
olsheey : 6
schey : 6
qopol : 6
daiidy : 6
kcheol : 6
cphaiin : 6
sheeor : 6
ykeor : 6
odam : 6
tcheey : 6
okchody : 6
cfhy : 6
qot : 6
shoiin : 6
tshol : 6
qokchd : 6
ksho : 6
ykor : 6
da : 6
otcho : 6
keor : 6
dody : 6
qoain : 6
ykchol : 6
ety : 6
deey : 6
qod : 6
cheeos : 6
chcthey : 6
shekeey : 6
sheeo : 6
oltedy : 6
chcthedy : 6
paiin : 6
chek : 6
ykchey : 6
chetar : 6
otary : 6
choteey : 6
chepy : 6
chotal : 6
oteodaiin : 6
oteed : 6
dalol : 6
ykeeey : 6
tcheody : 6
[s:r] : 6
olkeeody : 6
qopchol : 6
opcheol : 6
okchd : 6
keeol : 6
v : 6
@172; : 6
alam : 6
okalal : 6
dalar : 6
cheekey : 6
dalam : 6
alal : 6
okeoly : 6
qokeos : 6
sshedy : 6
osaiin : 6
oshey : 6
oteodal : 6
oto : 6
ofar : 6
ycheeo : 6
qokeechy : 6
okeod : 6
ykeeor : 6
oeey : 6
rshedy : 6
loly : 6
qokear : 6
ol,chedy : 6
solchedy : 6
lsheedy : 6
lteedy : 6
lsheey : 6
shckhedy : 6
oin : 6
ofchedy : 6
qochey : 6
rchey : 6
opor : 6
lar : 6
lkl : 6
ol,kaiin : 6
lched : 6
lpchedy : 6
y,cheey : 6
qokeod : 6
alkain : 6
chedam : 6
oteeey : 6
shory : 5
ydain : 5
shodain : 5
kshy : 5
chok : 5
dchaiin : 5
dcho : 5
okodar : 5
shan : 5
chyky : 5
ochor : 5
cthom : 5
cphor : 5
otcham : 5
shkaiin : 5
chopchy : 5
cholor : 5
od : 5
odaiiin : 5
qokchod : 5
sheodaiin : 5
pchey : 5
cheocthy : 5
chary : 5
otchar : 5
osain : 5
ykchor : 5
opchor : 5
oko : 5
okos : 5
soiiin : 5
shoty : 5
chol,daiin : 5
dyky : 5
chkchy : 5
tsho : 5
qotshy : 5
shdaiin : 5
pchodaiin : 5
qoteeody : 5
qopy : 5
qokoiin : 5
yteol : 5
chtol : 5
oldam : 5
ytchol : 5
o,l : 5
s,ar : 5
sham : 5
okcho : 5
ok : 5
chekedy : 5
dalchedy : 5
ofchdy : 5
okcheey : 5
cheokeey : 5
shockhy : 5
pchol : 5
oiir : 5
cheod : 5
chokor : 5
qoko : 5
qop : 5
cheoldy : 5
shcthey : 5
ykeeo : 5
cheam : 5
doiir : 5
tshdy : 5
as : 5
qokeedar : 5
eeedy : 5
qolkain : 5
yaiin : 5
shekchy : 5
chkedy : 5
pcheody : 5
shekey : 5
kary : 5
pchody : 5
ypar : 5
qotaly : 5
qolkeey : 5
pchdair : 5
qoteo : 5
alchey : 5
tcheol : 5
e : 5
p : 5
rcheey : 5
ckheody : 5
ctheody : 5
ckheol : 5
kody : 5
dairal : 5
@170; : 5
c : 5
dalchdy : 5
alkar : 5
dalal : 5
shokal : 5
qotair : 5
chockhey : 5
rary : 5
doly : 5
chekeey : 5
odair : 5
chekchy : 5
psheody : 5
otodaiin : 5
ykees : 5
saral : 5
yteeey : 5
opcheey : 5
qokeeedy : 5
cheoty : 5
oteotey : 5
qoteor : 5
okechy : 5
lal : 5
sheeey : 5
otalaiin : 5
otear : 5
okechedy : 5
otaram : 5
ltedy : 5
y,shedy : 5
dsheedy : 5
ol,kedy : 5
chetain : 5
chtal : 5
otechdy : 5
otedal : 5
cholkaiin : 5
pchedal : 5
cheedar : 5
olal : 5
otedaiin : 5
qopar : 5
ysheedy : 5
otarar : 5
qoeol : 5
qoedy : 5
cheedaiin : 5
lkam : 5
ro : 5
pcheor : 5
lkchdy : 5
qotched : 5
lchal : 5
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| A sieve cipher based on f66r |
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Posted by: Arichichi - 13-03-2023, 05:44 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (7)
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Undoubtedly, so far, I find You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. the most intriguing page. I think that if there is a substitution cipher that works, it has to be accounted for by the page f66r.
Just to shed some light on oddly working substitution cipher: Arabic readers, most of them, know that when the Arabic script was used to record the Quran at the first time, it didn't have diacritics. So, many letters were represented with the same character. Thus, b, t, thorn th, y were all represented the same, d, the th, were represented the same, and so on. So it's not impossible to find a substitution cipher that attributes many sounds to the same character, therefore attaching the rest of EVA, to perhaps, vowel signs and/or liturgical markings.
One intriguing aspect, is how You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. tends to display, repeatedly, EVA-d symbols that are bolder than usual, as well as some gallows. Could that be a sieve to select letters on other pages, much like a masking aid to decode other pages?
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