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EVA "qo" in 15th century ...
Forum: Analysis of the text
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1 hour ago
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[split] Aga Tentakulus' L...
Forum: Analysis of the text
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3 hours ago
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Do Split Gallows have rul...
Forum: Analysis of the text
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3 hours ago
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116v
Forum: Marginalia
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5 hours ago
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No text, but a visual cod...
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15thc perception on swall...
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10 hours ago
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Deconstructing the VMS : ...
Forum: Analysis of the text
Last Post: Jorge_Stolfi
11 hours ago
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Voynich Reconsidered
Forum: News
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Yesterday, 03:53 PM
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Voynich is encrypted ENOC...
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Yesterday, 10:56 AM
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I am not convinced by the...
Forum: Provenance & history
Last Post: Jorge_Stolfi
Yesterday, 08:28 AM
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| f57v figures |
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Posted by: anejati - 04-12-2025, 09:08 PM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (18)
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In You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. the characters in the middle ring repeat in a 4x17 pattern, and there are also 4 figures inside the circle. Going around the circle, the faces alternate towards and away from the viewer (towards-away-towards-away). The faces looking away have two outstretched hands and the faces looking towards have one raised hand which appears to be pointing at something.
It seems like an obvious pattern but I haven't seen any discussion on this. Is there any idea on the alternating towards-away faces? Do we know what this is supposed to symbolize? Are there parallels in other medieval scripts?
One interpretation is that the figures are supposed to represent four people in a circle in 3d (imagine children playing a game), but then it should have been towards-towards-away-away, not towards-away-towards-away.
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| A structural hypothesis: Voynichese as a polysynthetic-like morphological system |
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Posted by: Astra Lumen - 03-12-2025, 11:54 PM - Forum: The Slop Bucket
- Replies (3)
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Hello everyone,
I’m new here. I’m not a linguist or cryptographer, my background is not academic.
This is not a decipherment attempt. What follows is just a structural observation based on pattern-recognition and basic morphological reasoning.
I’ve been looking at Voynichese from a pattern-recognition perspective: not as encoded phonemes, but as possible morphological units.
What caught my attention is that several recurring sequences behave more like morphemes (in the typological sense) than like components of a substitution cipher.
Many analyses have noted that Voynichese has: - lower entropy than a typical monoalphabetic substitution,
- very stable internal word patterns,
- recurring sequences such as qo-, che-, -dy, -iin,
- and clear positional constraints on certain glyph groups.
Instead of treating these as “oddities” of an underlying phonemic text, I wondered what happens if we flip the model:
Core idea (structural, not semantic)
What if Voynichese doesn't encode letters or phonemes at all, but behaves more like a morphological system, where each "word" is a bundle of morpheme-like units (Prefix + stem + suffix), somewhat analogous to polysynthetic or strongly agglutinative languages?
Voynichese “words” may function as semantic/morphological bundles, similar to polysynthetic or highly agglutinative systems, rather than representing a letter-based encoding.
This idea might help explain some well-known features:
• very stable internal structure in many tokens
• frequent recurring sequences (qo-, che-, -dy, -iin)
• strong positional constraints
• low entropy inconsistent with simple substitution
• vocabulary shifts across sections
To illustrate the structural idea (not the semantics), here are a few examples in EVA:
1. The qoke- family: qokedy, qokeedy, qokain, qokaiin, qokal
These share:- Initial element: qo-
- Stem-like core: k(e/a)
- Variable endings: -edy / -dy / -ain / -aiin / -al
This pattern resembles a fixed stem with multiple aspect/state suffixes, common in polysynthetic morphology, where endings encode nuances like iteration, completion, plurality, state, etc.
Even without knowing the semantics, the structure is consistent.
2. The -hedy cluster: shedy, chedy, ychedy, lchedy, okedy (overlapping pattern)
These share:- a stable -hed- / -ched- / -ked- type stem
- variable onsets (s-, ch-, y-, l-, o-)
- a highly stable final element: -dy
In morphology, this is classic behavior of a productive suffix attaching to multiple stems.- Position: final
- Stability: invariant
- Distribution: high frequency
- Combination: attaches widely
These are foundational criteria for morpheme identification in unknown languages.
3. The ol–olol–olkeeody family
These show:- ol
- olol (reduplication-like extension)
- olkeeody (stem expansion + final suffix)
Reduplication and recursive stem-building are common in polysynthetic and agglutinative languages but are unusual in substitution ciphers unless artificially engineered.
The recurrence and structure again suggest morphological productivity.
Why polysynthetic-like?
Not because Voynichese is one of those languages, but because:- tokens behave like semantic bundles rather than phoneme sequences
- many stems appear to be non-phonotactic but internally consistent
- affix-like sequences have clear positional rigidity
- the writing flow looks natural for whole morphological units
This shifts the analytic model away from:
encoded alphabet → encoded syllables → encoded phonemes
and toward:
prefix (class/process marker) + stem (core process/state) + suffix (aspect/iteration/state)
A pseudo-polysynthetic system could be invented, constructed, or hybrid, the origin doesn’t affect the structural behavior.
What this is NOT:- Not an argument about semantics
- Not claiming the text is natural language
- Not claiming decipherment
- Not pushing a specific meaning system
Just a structural possibility that might be testable through:
- morpheme segmentation algorithms
- co-occurrence analysis
- positional modeling
- affix-grammar approaches
- typological comparison (Eskimo-Aleut, Algonquian, Chukotko-Kamchatkan, etc.)
If such analysis has already been attempted, I’d appreciate pointers.
If not, maybe this model offers another angle for people working on statistical or computational methods.
Thanks for reading and for any thoughts.
Astra Lumen
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| Glyphs as Joined/Connected text |
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Posted by: Mark Knowles - 03-12-2025, 06:54 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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I have been thinking apart how to distinguish distinct glyphs in the Voynich manuscript and the way that makes most sense to me is to view interconnected or joined symbols to count as one glyph unit. So "aiiin" would count as one glyph. This way of defining glyphs increases their number, but seems more logical, otherwise one has to decide when to disentangle connected symbols and treat them as separate glyphs and this would seem to be very arbitrary and confusing. I know that someone might point to some complex interconnected benched gallows, but even in their case I am inclined to treat them as one glyph.
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| F70v2 and autocitation |
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Posted by: Rafal - 02-12-2025, 11:50 AM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (7)
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Something weird (or maybe not weird at all) is going at f70v2 (Pisces zodiac sign)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
otar am otaral otalar otalam otolal
For me it is a very strong case for autocitation hypothesis suggested by Torsten Timm. The scribe is altering the same word and making a gibberish.
It such a case attempts to identify the star (like Alrescha from Pisces constellation) will be futile.
Would you have another explanations?
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| [split] Did the VM go straight from cerebellum to vellum? |
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Posted by: Jorge_Stolfi - 02-12-2025, 06:15 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (55)
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(01-12-2025, 10:54 PM)qoltedy Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There are other additions or exceptions you could add onto the theory of multiple scribes (it's copying from an earlier text, it's a phonetic transcription, it's oral knowledge passed down) but each of these requires its own leaps in logic and speculative assumptions. If the text had multiple scribes to copy a previous text, who wrote THAT text? Was it one person? Meaning one person wrote the entirety of a Proto-Voynich Manuscript, and then later paid 5 scribes to write it again? For what purpose would someone do it this way, instead of just writing it themselves?
It would be insane to write anything on vellum straight from one's head. It would be like writing a document today with the keyboard connected directly to the laser printer.
Vellum was expensive and difficult to erase from. Moreover that task required an experienced hand capable of writing tiny letters neatly; something that not everyone would have.
Thus I bet that practically every manuscript on vellum, including the VMS, including encrypted letters, was written on (much cheaper) paper first, with all the correcting and crossinging-out that may have been necessary. And only then this paper draft would be copied to vellum.
And this last step was a boring mechanical task that required good "quill driving" skill but no understanding of the text. Thus it must have been usually delegated to a secretary or more-or-less professional scribe, or to "scribal shop" (like a monastery).
Then the VMS Author would be the person who wrote the draft, not the person(s) who put quill to vellum. Most likely, he was only one person for the whole book.
The Author would have to teach the Voynichese alphabet to each scribe, and have the scribe practice until he could copy it satisfactorily well. This point argues against multiple scribes working at the same time. But it would allow for a different scribe for each section (counting Herbal-A and Herbal-B as two sections), if they were composed by the Author in separate epochs, separated by substantial time intervals.
All the best, --stolfi
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| Various Graphs and Analyses |
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Posted by: srjskam - 30-11-2025, 06:11 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (17)
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I've had two stints of Voynich fever, once in 2015 and the second time a year ago. On the second round I produced some graphs and analyses and thought about posting them here, but never got to it. It keeps bugging me, so I'd better post this stuff to get some peace of mind...
Everything is very unpolished, not nice enough to write blog posts about, but maybe this could inspire someone. Most of these analyses examine a different aspect, but there isn't really enough substance to merit a new thread for each. Mistakes are to be expected. I've mostly done the analyses with Python in JupyterLab (Pandas, MatPlotLib etc), using various transcriptions, mostly Takahashi for older stuff and ZL. I'm usually mostly interested in paragraph type text and omit labelese.
I don't claim anything here is new. Sometimes I went out to replicate old results, and I'm well aware of the fact that in Voynich research 99.9% of all results have been thought of by a dozen people before.
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| How many people penned the main Voynichese text? |
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Posted by: Koen G - 29-11-2025, 05:01 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (32)
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I'm curious to see how the opinions are divided on the matter of "how many scribes". I like to know this, since for example in a video I might say "the majority view is...", but I need to know whether my impression of the majority view is correct.
This is an anonymous poll, vote for the answer you think is most likely. No need to take the opinions of others into account, nor to be absolutely certain. Just vote how you feel. Discussion in the thread is allowed, of course.
It is only about the main text of the manuscript, so ignore all marginalia, month names, page numbers etc etc. Also ignore any Authors or Masterminds or other background figures. Count only the people who put Voynichese to parchment.
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| The prisoner scenario: a though experiment |
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Posted by: oshfdk - 28-11-2025, 02:48 PM - Forum: Theories & Solutions
- Replies (33)
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Most theories, I think, try explaining various strange aspects of the manuscript under the following assumptions:
1) The manuscript was created voluntarily, the author(s) wanted to create it.
2) The author(s) had a lot of freedom in choosing the materials used and could fully control the production of the manuscript.
3) The author(s) has some clear intention about the future use of the manuscript, after it's completed.
While all of these could be true, I think it's much easier to explain some strange properties of the manuscript under scenarios that challenge these assumptions.
Just a few of more or less silly examples to explain what I mean. These are not proposed scenarios, these are thought experiments to demonstrate the iffiness of many assumptions that a lot of solution theories make.
1) A person (say, from a distant land) is sentenced to death and she or he offers to create a book of secret foreign knowledge in exchange for saving their life. Having no secret knowledge she of he invents a custom script and says that the contents can only be revealed after the work is completed. The whole manuscript is just a ruse to postpone own death. The longer and the stranger the MS is, the better.
2) The author is a hermit and only has access to limited quantity of materials and tools. The author writes to pass the time with no clear plan, develops a new writing system in the process, all this takes decades. She or he leaves a lot of works and notes behind on paper, but all of them are destroyed by the elements, the only exception is a sample codex made on scrap vellum.
And my favorite one so far (mostly because under this scenario the manuscript may have interesting non trivial content) is "the prisoner scenario".
A person is imprisoned for creating some provocative teachings or any related thought crimes. Part of the sentence bans the prisoner from writing ever again and prevents any contact with the outside world. If caught the prisoner will face a harsh punishment. Maybe there is a scant chance of being freed in some 30 years when some new king takes the throne.
Still, being a person of ideas, the prisoner wants to complete the work of their life and create one more manuscript for posterity, even with no clear understanding of who and when will be able to read it.
What is needed for this?
1) Some material durable enough to survive decades and possible mishaps.
2) Format small enough to be hidden.
3) Ink and impromptu writing tools.
4) Never get caught - writing at night, under moonlight, etc.
5) Plausible deniability if the manuscript is discovered - nothing should link it to the author, not only the contents should be enciphered, there should be no way to match the handwriting, so a custom script should be used. And the appearance of the manuscript should certainly be quite different from an expected work of the author, something innocuous, maybe an astrological herbal?
6) Ensure the future safety of the manuscript: maybe add a bit provocative images and unique foldout maps to make sure whoever finds this manuscript wouldn't throw it away and with time will decipher it. But the author has to err on the side of the caution, it's more important to not let the captors decipher it if the codex is found in prison, so the cipher itself is exceptionally strong.
It takes months or maybe even years to find a way to get all the materials needed by maybe bribing the food delivery guy or making friends with one of the guards.
Most of the job has to be done at night with barely any light, including mixing inks and mending the writing tools. This causes a lot of imperfections, but this doesn't stop the author, the author has a LOT of time on their hands. It doesn't matter if one page takes a month to complete, so the author is being careful and slowly fills page after page with tiny letters and decoy images.
Was it ever completed? Who found it? Nobody knows.
One thing that makes this scenario intriguing is that under it we are indeed the intended target audience of this manuscript. It was written for posterity, maybe the author didn't expect it to take 600 years, but the whole intent of this manuscript was to be deciphered and read by future generations.
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| Palmierite (and atacamite?) |
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Posted by: ReneZ - 28-11-2025, 09:05 AM - Forum: Physical material
- Replies (10)
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(28-11-2025, 08:32 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I had to remove a line from the article about the mineral You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that claimed that it was used as a paint pigment in the VMS. Just because the McCrone technician copy-pasted the output of their spectrum-matching software onto the report, without checking what palmerite was.
I just removed that reference to the VMS from the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. article. And another one from the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. article. See the respective Talk pages. Please let me know if you find other cases.
To be honest, from where I stand the removal of the plant ID hypotheses is fully justified, but the removal of the line about palmierite is doing the opposite: replacing information from a technical report by an opinion of a non-expert.
Strictly speaking, the report says: "possibly minor amounts of lead sulfide and palmierite", so at least the word "possibly" (or equivalent) should have been there.
However, I don't want to make a point of it, because the whole article says noting at all, and having just the Voynich MS reference doesn't really make any sense.
In earlier days there was a similar discussion about atacamite, which some people thought was non-European. This material was found in other pieces of art in Italy, though. (This is from memory so "C.E.").
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