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Welcome, Guest You have to register before you can post on our site. Username/Email:    Password    Remember me Search Forums (Advanced Search) Online Users There are currently 427 online users. » 5 Member(s) | 419 Guest(s) Bing, Google, Yandex, dfs346, Hider, Ruby Novacna Latest Threads [split] Aga Tentakulus' L... Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: Aga Tentakulus 54 minutes ago » Replies: 32 » Views: 14,766 I've deciphered the Voyni... Forum: Voynich Talk Last Post: Stefan Wirtz_2 1 hour ago » Replies: 69 » Views: 2,556 Big red stain on f103r an... Forum: Physical material Last Post: Bluetoes101 2 hours ago » Replies: 21 » Views: 15,212 Making a test for transla... Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: oshfdk 3 hours ago » Replies: 10 » Views: 307 Let's rate some bulls Forum: Imagery Last Post: Koen G 5 hours ago » Replies: 73 » Views: 9,730 Discussion of "A possible... Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: Pepper 6 hours ago » Replies: 246 » Views: 122,967 Month names collection / ... Forum: Marginalia Last Post: R. Sale Today, 12:47 AM » Replies: 91 » Views: 4,011 Always impressive Forum: Fiction, Comics, Films & Videos, Games & other Media Last Post: Aga Tentakulus 09-07-2025, 05:55 PM » Replies: 21 » Views: 5,723 116v Forum: Marginalia Last Post: Aga Tentakulus 09-07-2025, 03:00 AM » Replies: 1,059 » Views: 575,317 A Non-Linguistic Cadence-... Forum: News Last Post: Ebysslabs 08-07-2025, 01:48 PM » Replies: 4 » Views: 356

"Branch stubs" Posted by: Koen G - 02-01-2018, 09:20 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (4) In a number of VM plants there are "stubs" from where it seems that a branch or twig has been removed. This motif is apparently fairly common in other manuscripts. My guess is that since forests and trees in general used to be managed very intensively, people were used to seeing trees with cut branches. Might this mean that the motif might be a "tree marker" or "woody marker" in the VM? Here's just two examples, from the Liber Floridus and MS Palatino 586, but it is certainly not limited to these:   stub.jpg (Size: 101.77 KB / Downloads: 85)   f72v1 - Thirteen circle segments (volvelle) Posted by: bi3mw - 01-01-2018, 10:02 PM - Forum: Astrology - Replies (4) I guess there's a triangle on f72v1, so  I examined it more closely. At first, I thought it might be the pointer of a volvelle, but there were two problems: First, the position is not in the center of the circle (clearly to the right of it). Second, there are no obvious clues for the number and positions of additonal pointers in the large outer circle. Here's a (of course speculative) thought experiment: Assuming that it makes sense to divide the inner circle into segments, one would most likely divide them into 12 equal parts. In fact, the triangle could be an hint that a division into 13 segments should be made. This is easy to be done by transferring the line segment AB. Then you can produce up to 12 more triangles. All steps are traceable on a drawing board ( or with drawing programs ). I don't know whether a division into 13 segments makes sense or not. For example, one could speculate that certain stars can only be marked this way. Then you would have number and position of other pointers. What do you think ?   [split] Humanist handwriting in the MS? Posted by: -JKP- - 29-12-2017, 10:50 AM - Forum: Codicology and Paleography - Replies (24) I have more than a thousand samples of handwriting that I specifically culled from many thousands of manuscripts due to their similarity to the column text, the main text, and the marginalia. I also have enough background in this area to have some expertise at this. I have hundreds more "reference" samples, some of which are hybrid or transitional between the 1) Italic and Humanist/Secretary hands and 2) the proto-Gothic and Gothic cursive hands, along with more pure examples of each and some of their related styles (e.g., Anglicana, which is a cousin to Gothic cursive). My observations so far (I've been working on this for many years): I'm reasonably confident that the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. column text is Italic/Humanist/Secretary hand (the differences are small and I'll explain them in more detail later along with more correct terms). I have many samples to support this. I'm close to pinpointing a date and location (it took several hundred samples before even I began to consider dates and locations because I don't think it's good science to rush this and guess from a small set of samples). The marginalia is an early Gothic cursive blended with a small amount of Gothic book hand (this is not unusual since some people learned both hands). I have many hundreds of carefully selected samples, a half a dozen of which score in the 80s (out of 126) on a mathematical scale keyed to the reference marginalia. I also know which letter forms are specific to this hand (I can document this) so that the hand can be recognized. I'm reasonably confident that the main-text writers were familiar with Gothic cursive scribal conventions and abbreviations and I have some reference hands that are mixed Humanist/Gothic (that sounds like a contradiction but they do exist, they include both Gothic forms and Italic spacing conventions) that come somewhat close, and I have also identified which key shapes are unique to the main script, and which ones are common to many (I have done the same with the marginalia). It's very important to keep in mind that ciphers are often written with different spacing from a person's regular hand. There are many historical examples that show cipher shapes are often closer to a person's printing than to their handwriting. IF the VMS is ciphered text, the spacing will not necessary reflect the person's handwriting, but some of the letterforms may (e.g., a and o). The reason I haven't written this up is because it takes time to do it right. With the zodiac symbols, for example, I didn't want to quote statistics or make generalizations until I had at least 500 complete cycles, and it took many years to find and key them. If you use a small sample, it's supposition and guesswork—a larger sample, and a little bit of actual math and scientific inquiry comes into play. My feelings about the text are the same. I didn't want to make generalizations and write it up until I had culled at least 1,000 samples from extant manuscripts that were CLOSE to the hands in the VMS, with information about their dates, origins, etc. I wanted to devote another year to studying this before making any of the above generalizations, but once topics are brought up on the forum, they tend to take on a life of their own, with everyone jumping in the pool, and often going over the same ground and collecting and posting the same items I already have in my files. Once the ball is rolling, I have no choice but to climb on the wagon and present what is incomplete (compared to what I had planned). If I don't, there's a huge replication of effort (plus I get accused of copying other people's work). This is not a criticism, it's just the way it is when a community pools its resources relative to someone working independently. I had hoped to write this up as a paper—not because I had thoughts about getting it published, but because some topics are better treated this way. It's far too extensive to post as blogs (it would take 20 blogs just to lay a foundation for understanding it). ----------------------- The column-text hands I posted You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., later in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) are just the tip of the iceberg. Not only do I have much more in my files than I can fit on a blog-chart but I have found some important additional data since the last time I posted it. I have also done an in-depth study of the foliation and quire hands and I have data that shows the foliation may not be John Dee's hand (it is very similar to Dee's hand but I have located a couple of other hands that might be considered more similar). The research I've done on the marginalia far exceeds the work on the column text. Here is a quick grab (very quick) of some of the ca 1,000 hands I've collected (these are ONLY hands that bear a significant resemblance to the marginalia, I have many more hundreds that are reference hands or which match other parts of the text): One of the things one notices when looking at the dates of the manuscripts represented by these hands is that they are within the same general ballpark as the radio-carbon dating for the VMS, which indicates that the last-page marginalia may be contemporary with the creation of the manuscript, or added within a few decades of its creation. Note: I did not look for hands that were specific to the 15th century. I consistently searched hands from about 900 CE to about 1720 CE, but only those manuscripts (or marginal commentaries) that were written around the 15th century (give or take about 40 years) tend to exhibit this style.   Humanist handwriting in the MS? Posted by: ReneZ - 29-12-2017, 09:10 AM - Forum: Codicology and Paleography - Replies (49) Already in December 1995 Jim Reeds reported about a discussion that he and his wife had with the Italian herbalist Sergio Toresella, who had visited the Beinecke library where he had spent some time with the Voynich MS. One of Toresella's observations, which was clearly supported by Jim, was that the handwriting in the MS was in an Italian humanist hand. This observation was supported much later by a Spanish handwriting expert: Juan Jose Marcos, who further pointed out that this type of handwriting was used only by educated people. It has always remained a bit of a question what to do with this information, and how the humanist strive for good form can be reconciled with the amateuristic and not all that elegant drawings in the MS. Just a few weeks ago, I received a very interesting tip about this from Michelle Smith. I wanted to write about it earlier, but then other things happened. One of the early Italian humanists was born as Zomino, but he changed his name to Sozomeno (1387 - 1458). He was born and died in Pistoia, and studied in Padova from 1407-1413. He entered the clergy already at an early age, and met other humanists in Florence (where he knew Poggio). He did several of the 'usual'  humanist things such as composing greek and latin grammars, and commenting on many classical authors. He built up his own library, which he donated to the city of Pistoia in 1423. Here are some links (all in Italian): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. What is unique about him is that his change from a standard gothic handwriting style to a humanist handwriting style is fully document and can be followed in his works. This is explained in detail You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . What most attracted my attention was the picture that Michelle sent to me:   23899487_10159562039330433_1066804852_n.jpg (Size: 83.97 KB / Downloads: 390) I have not been able to find this one back on the net, but there are a few others:   A33.jpg (Size: 65.58 KB / Downloads: 398) The marginal writing and drawings are confirmed to be in Sozomeno's hand. I am not at all trying to argue here, that Sozomeno is suddenly a candidate for having written the Voynich MS. However, the almost doodle-like marginal illustrations do have a very familiar ring to them.   Mystery page Posted by: -JKP- - 20-12-2017, 05:19 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (9) What is this? I've never seen it before. The text looks real (although the last two lines are a bit small compared to the rest). The green paint looks real, as does the band around the "tub" both top and bottom. Parts of the nymphs look real. But... The top of the "canopy" (the part to the right of the scaly texture) and the steel-blue paint look totally fake. Parts of the "barrels" (the brown paint) and most parts of the goblet-like tub look totally fake. It's like it was a half-finished page that someone tried to doctor and removed because it failed. There's no folio number even though it appears to be the right side of a folio. Why has this never came up on the forum? Has it been discussed elsewhere? What the heck is it? Who has it? Has the other side been digitized?   Marginalia f66v Posted by: Wladimir D - 18-12-2017, 08:08 PM - Forum: Marginalia - Replies (3) As though it did not seem ridiculous, this drawing (a green square) reminded an old children's cartoon, where ants participated - "robots" You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (15min 39 sec). The figure shows two eyes with eyebrows and mouth. The text in my transcription ے|t3iiiit3   МУРАВЕЙ.JPG (Size: 117.78 KB / Downloads: 169)   Voynich manuscript is decoded Posted by: Andy123 - 15-12-2017, 11:50 AM - Forum: News - Replies (8) Hello everyone! I'm glad to tell, that this document was decoded. It took 16 years to do this hard work for one man. He just wrote a book about this.  Book you can find here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.   72v1 CONSTRUCTION OF WEIGHTS Posted by: Wladimir D - 11-12-2017, 02:23 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (12)  In the aid of Koen, I want to separately discuss the sign of the scales in the MV. These are not ordinary pharmacy scales, which are attached with a rope (hook) to a vertical stand, or they are held by of the hook the hand .   I believe that this is scales with a pre-adjusted neutral position (for weighing small masses of elements). The cog in the reciprocating-lever (in scale-beam)  of the scales is placed in the conical recess of the vertical rack. Equilibrium is achieved by selecting loads that are attached to the vertical connecting rod. Equilibrium will be obtained when the arrow and connecting rod are parallel. A similar scheme of scales is depicted in the Egyptian figure of Osiris. Of course, it would be simpler to achieve equilibrium by putting a counterweight directly into the cup, but this design of the scales eliminates the fear that the counterweight material will react (contaminate)  the substance to be weighed. Especially when the substance to be weighed is a liquid (acid).   ВЕСЫ.JPG (Size: 130.18 KB / Downloads: 134) Sad news about Stephen Bax Posted by: ReneZ - 11-12-2017, 07:44 AM - Forum: News - Replies (29) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. My thoughts go to his family.   Browsing 'Aries' Posted by: Diane - 08-12-2017, 08:50 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (22) I won't put this into the 'astrological section' because I've not yet seen any reason to think that the Voynich calendar was used for astrological calculations.  In a post dated 22nd. October, 2012, '‘Astrological zodiac’ roundels ~ the hypothesis' I returned to the point that until there is some evidence of the way the series was used, it is an error to describe it as 'astrological'; the best one can say is that it came to be used as a calendar at some time - that is, the time when each figure in the series was inscribed with the name of a month - ten months of the year, with some names appearing twice, each time carefully differentiated in the way the month-name was written. Speaking of the animal which is putatively an 'Aries' I wrote: the picture labelled with what seems to be the equivalent of ‘April’ shows a rough-haired and smooth-haired creature on hilly ground, munching on a bush or small tree. Domestic sheep don’t browse at all –  they graze (i.e. crop grass directly from the ground, not by stripping leaves off trees or bushes). What is more, the goat’s habitat and habit of browsing was inextricably linked to its  Latin etymology (he-goats: caper; cropping bushes: capere; uneven places: capatere aspera – vide Isidore IX) so that these were the associations established by the terms and language which informed daily speech among the learned and the basic education of all the literate in western Christendom. I’ll be quoting the basic texts such as Isidore and the bestiaries on that point. In addition, the curves given the horns here, and omission of the beard is in keeping with classical habit. Compare the jawlines ~ as drawn in a medieval bestiary as against a mosaic from Greco-Roman Antioch. As you might imagine, then, I had a bit of a start on seeing another 'Aries' browsing - this time in stone, on Chartres Cathedral. (west facade, north portal, archivolt). The sheep - or intended sheep - has a long, thick tail, shaggy-looking coat, and rather curiously formed horns. I think it may be a Damara - which is interesting given that we also see a fat-tailed sheep pictured on f.116v. We know a lot more in late 2017 than we did in 2012 about the habits of different sheep-breeds and relative propensity for browsing.  Concerns about global warming and its ancillary impact on such things as climate and thus on available fodder has stimulated a great deal of study in a fairly short time.  Apart from the modern cross-breeds, hybrids and genetically-engineered breeds, the general pattern is that the haired breeds are most inclined to browse.. being nearer their common ancestor with the goat.   The Damara is one such breed. It was earlier found in north Africa and Egypt.  The centuries have seen it pushed further south until recently,  by which time it was to be seen only in Namibia.  The horns' shape varies, but the photo below seems a reasonable comparison for the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.  The link is to an enlargeable image. oh - and here's a photo showing the Damara tail. As you see it touches the ground, but doesn't have that 'kick' in the tail we see in Indian fat-tailed sheep and on f.116v. In short, I think the 'Aries' in the Voynich calendar may be sheep after all; that they depict another haired breed, probably a fat-tailed sort, more like the variety seen in f.116v.   Fat-tailed sheep of some kind were being raised in medieval Spain, but were not much more widely bred in mainland Europe because they're not suited to areas with high rainfall. I should add that where the Chartres' image is recognisably a sheep, the horns on the Voynich pair seem to me, still, to be those of a goat.  But perhaps other members can correct me on that. Here's the Voynich pair as shown by JKP in his post of March last year.  He calls them 'Green-White Aries'. I'd call them the rough and the smooth myself. First Previous Next Last