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In this thread we will gather an overview of all rare and unique features of the VM images compared to other sources. This thread will be updated as new examples are submitted in the discussion thread. I will add one post here for each sign.
The philosophy behind this thread is that it should reflect the best knowledge we (on the forum) have so far. For example, if a trait is listed as unique and someone reports an example from another manuscript, it will be moved to "rare". Your remarks are very much appreciated in the discussion thread.
When the statement is the result of studying a relatively large corpus of Zodiac cycles, a feature classifies as "rare" when it appears in 5% or less cases. A feature can also classify as "rare" if we only know about a handful of other manuscripts where it appears. The "unique" label is reserved for VM features which have not yet been found in any other Zodiac images from the early 15thc century or before. When a feature is only attested in documents later than the VM, this will be added in the "notes" section. Those features which are not rare enough to be "rare" but still noteworthy may also be listed under "notes".
Much of the contents of this thread has been copied from forum members' contributions in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., which is worth a read if you are interested in the VM Zodiac symbols. Many thanks to all members who made this collection of knowledge possible.
Pisces
- Unique:
The mouth of each fish is connected to a star by a line
[*]
- Rare:
The two fish are not connected to each other by a line
[*]
- Notes:
JKP notes that blue Pisces and long-nosed Pisces are relatively uncommon.
This thread is a first effort to test the possibilities of our new "Voynich essentials" subforum. The name "essentials" is not to be taken too literally, it can really be about anything. The most important thing is that threads there will be clear and to the point, offering the user an overview in one click. I hope the way it works will become clear after a while.
After posting this thread, I will make a new thread in the "Voynich essentials" subforum. Normally you will not be allowed to post there. All discussion and submissions happen in this thread, of which the "essentials" thread will be a reflection.
What am I looking for? One of two types of statements which compare the VM Zodiac signs to other sources. For example:
Quote:Taurus
Unique:
basket
Quote:Gemini
Rare:
embracing with crossed arms
[image from manuscript where this has been found]
[description from manuscript, finder, link to sources...]
All kinds of graphs related to Voynichese will be collected here, when possible accompanied by explanation from the maker.
If you've seen or made an interesting graph which should be included, you can submit it on another subforum.
Don't forget to include author and/or original location.
By coincidence I came across an image which drew my attention:
It's from a sarcophagus from Jewish catacombs in Rome. As explained You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., the imagery is fairly standard pagan four seasons stuff. But the object within the circle is unusual. Generally a portrait of de deceased would be carved here, but this sarcophagus was ordered by a Jew who opted for a menorah instead.
The menorah, as it was drawn here, reminded me immediately of a specific Voynich plant: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
There's the three pairs of branches and the "cup" shape on top. But also the arched pedestal. This example os from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (14thC)
But there's more. The menorah in this picture and others has been carved to make it look like it's made from a series of beads or other interlocking sections. A similar type of decoration might be alluded to in the lower part of the roots.
A multiseries film on the decoding of the MV appeared in the network (in Russian). The first series is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . Sergei suggests that the text of the manuscript is written in polysynthetic language with words that have predominantly proto-Slavic roots. There is an interesting suggestion that 40 is an analog of the English verb "to". In the twelfth series You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Sergei suggests that f67v2 shows the process of double fertilization of flowering plants. The author does not explain the meaning of the pictograms. I see the process in the following sequence. The upper right pictogram shows the process of pollen formation. 3 minutes 01 seconds of the video You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . The left upper pictogram is the formation of the second male gamete. 9 min 42sec + Left bottom. Fusion of one male gamete (12 min 12 sec) with a secondary nucleus. The red sector is the secondary core. There is a connection (line) with a secondary core and a lower gamete. The blue sector is the egg. The green semicircle is two male gametes. It seems that the upper "gamete" has a cap. Right bottom. The second male gamete (with a cap) fertilizes the egg, with further division, and the formation of the embryo. 12 min 01sec. But there is a paradoxical question - who could describe this process in the 15th century, since the process was opened in 1898. PS / Suggestion between upper pictograms Sergei translates - (on the end of sticky liquid, retention) a literary - sticky liquid keeps the pollen on the stigma of the pistil.
Quote:Is everyone ok with this being referred to as the "Zodiac" section?
It seems to be something of a convention to call it that, and everyone immediately understands what part of the Voynich is being referred to, but I know some people don't like calling it that.
and Koen:
Quote:The term Zodiac section is not without its problems
I find it increasingly difficult to take any of this seriously.
Could anyone please come up with a definition of 'zodiac', in such a way that one can understand why the zodiac section in the Voynich MS would *not* be a zodiac???
A count of people in the "Zodiac" section of the Voynich Manuscript (the section featuring central roundels and concentric rings of people which spans across Q10 and Q12).
Q10
70v2:29
70v1:15
Q11
71r:15
71v:15
72r1:15
72r2:32 (30 + 2 in the central roundel)
72r3:30
72v1: 30
72v3: 30
72v2: 31 (30 + 1 in the central roundel)
Hi everyone,
continuing the polls about counting things, it's time to move on to people in Q13.
A re-post of the count from the original Counting Things thread:
75r: 14
75v: 29
76r: text only
76v: 5
77r: 4
77v: 7
78r: 15
78v: 9
79r: 7
79v: 4
80r: 16
80v: 12
81r: 13
81v: 16
82r: 15
82v: 8
83r: 5
83v: 4
84r: 33
84v: 15
Total: 231 people in Q13.
I couldn't decide whether to put this in the Water Cooler, or text analysis, but since she is actually interpreting the text in a specific way that I haven't seen before, I opted for this.
It may give you a chuckle, or it may make you say hmmmmm (or you might just think she's got a good head for marketing by using the Voynich name), but how she integrates her interpretation of text and image is actually quite interesting:
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My personal opinion is that the VMS is not patterns, at least I don't think the large and small plants or the bio sections are patterns, but some of the cosmo wheels have had me wondering for a while. For example, the ones that look like radiating pipes have a slightly dimensional quality to them, that remind me of quilling and goldwork (a form of embroidery) from the middle ages.
Mainly for people who have heard about bathing literature and the 'Salernitan' school but not seen much of the texts.
In about c.1474, a work credited to Arnauld of Villanova is known as the Salernitan Rule of Health (often called 'Flos medicinae' or 'Lilium medicinae' ) and has a bit about bathing in it. An early print edition of the Latin text, entitled Regimen sanitatis ad regem Aragonum is available (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. )
This Regimen... is supposed to be that of the Salerno Medical School but in the parallel translation, at least, the paragraph about bathing is preceded by a curious paragraph about coffee - "curious" because in 1474 coffee wasn't called coffee yet and was unknown in Europe. A parallel translation of that paragraph (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
In about the thirteenth century coffee was being drunk in the Yemen as stimulant, much as soma (ephedra) had earlier been used around the border of Persia and northern India; but it would be fully four hundred years more until coffee was used in Europe - according to the Cambridge World History of Food (Vol.2).
Quoting the Oxford English Dictionary , the wiki article says:
Quote:The word "coffee" entered the English language in 1582 via the Dutch koffie,You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. borrowed from the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.kahve, in turn borrowed from the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.qahwah (قهوة).
So what does that imply about the source and date for the work attributed to Villanova, and for the same work's 'bathing' section?
It's easy to think of excuses/reasons/theories.. e.g.
*the nineteenth-century translator misread/misunderstood the Latin; * the coffee paragraph was interpolated from Rhazes (not so likely because he called it bunchum which a Latin of Europe wouldn't have known meant coffee, even in 1474); *the coffee paragraph was included by Arnaud on the advice of immigrants who had come from somewhere a good deal further to the east than Salerno;
The last is certainly posssible, given a number of other works (including the Vms) which reveal a line of transmission between the Yemen and Spain or southern France.
But then, if an east-to-west transmission might (maybe) bring knowledge of coffee westwards by 1474 - if the paragraph is original - then should be suppose the same for the 'ladies'?
Does that mean the word 'coffee' was known to Arnauld? Really?
Here's the bathing section of the work - not much to it.
![[Image: 37d0c7_0dba324857d74cc2a5f008d9bc56ac70~mv2.webp]](https://static.wixstatic.com/media/37d0c7_0dba324857d74cc2a5f008d9bc56ac70~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_576,h_357,al_c,lg_1,q_80/37d0c7_0dba324857d74cc2a5f008d9bc56ac70~mv2.webp)
