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I am not convinced by the...
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No text, but a visual cod...
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| Circular text & Wreath |
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Posted by: R. Sale - 12-03-2022, 08:28 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (3)
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Is this f86v5, with the wreath??
Has there been any special investigation of the circular text?
If we continue the conjecture that this folio interpretation is tied to C-14 contemporary religious trends in Mariology, that this is the 'wreath of the virgin', and the virgin is represented by the moon, then what if these four lines of text are also a part, as prayers, like the "little office of the virgin" in some form.
The attempt to match VMs text to historical text, based on plant identifications produced no viable candidates, will other possibilities fare any better?
ADD: REFERENCE
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Notes: Premonstratensians are the white galeros. Mandatory during C-14 dates. Variable. Need relevant examples.
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| Ksenia Chepikova about the Voynich Manuscript |
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Posted by: Anton - 12-03-2022, 01:15 AM - Forum: News
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A friend of mine dropped me the link. The interview is in Russian, and as far as I can see there are no English subtitles unfortunately.
Unfortunately, these days I haven't had enough time yet to view it in full, the first ~20 minutes that I got into are mostly descriptive, what's the VMS, its history and all that. The description of the video, however, announces the subject of whether the VMS is, or is not, a "modern forgery" as the main subject of the talk.
What I did not like from the onset was the suggestion that the VMS may be a palimpsest. I recall that the statement that the VMS is not a palimpsest was the one most unanimously (pardon me this) approved in our sadly abandoned Voynich facts endeavour.
A quick search showed me that Dr. Chepikova is from the University of Jena. I don't remember her name mentioned in any of the Voynich discussions however.
The Russian speakers who happen to watch the video in full please be welcome to add to this; so will I when I have time to watch it further.
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| Medieval Arabic manuscripts in Timbuktu digitized and translated |
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Posted by: RenegadeHealer - 11-03-2022, 02:16 PM - Forum: Codicology and Paleography
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Good news reported by the BBC recently:
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The climate in Timbuktu, Mali is ideal for the natural preservation of ancient codices. In Medieval Times Timbuktu was a major overland transport hub, and amassed one of the world’s largest library of mostly Arabic language manuscripts, on all sorts of topics.
The reason this makes me happy is because in recent years Timbuktu has seen a lot of Islamic fundamentalist unrest, and is not safe for Western tourists or researchers to visit. As the article describes, there have been (so far only slightly successful) attempts by militant Islamists to destroy these codices. We may have lost the priceless libraries at Alexandria and Baghdad, but copies of some of the manuscripts contained there might very well have made their way to Timbuktu.
It’s my opinion that Medieval Arabic manuscripts are a potentially fruitful source of precedents for anyone exploring alchemical and/or herbal themes in the VMs. Or earlier and closer-to-the-source versions of mythology and philosophy from the world of Classical Antiquity.
Learning to read classical Arabic and spending my days looking at digitized alchemical manuscripts is one idea I have for a retirement project, if I ever retire.
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| Well of Moses |
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Posted by: R. Sale - 10-03-2022, 10:43 PM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (6)
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Need something hexagonal to subtly fill in under that starry canopy in your central VMs Rosette?
You've tried thrones and fountains and pulpits, and they just don't seem right.
Try Well of Moses! Clearly hexagonal and the provenance is delicious. Goes great with mythical Melusine, the Golden Fleece, and La Sainte Hostie de Dijon.
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| Voynich conference! |
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Posted by: LisaFaginDavis - 07-03-2022, 07:19 PM - Forum: News
- Replies (90)
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Greetings, all,
I am very pleased to announce an open call for papers for a Voynich conference hosted by the University of Malta! The conference will take place online on Nov. 30 and Dec. 1.
Submissions will be double-blind peer reviewed. Rene and I will be presenting keynote lectures, and Beinecke curator Ray Clemens will present opening remarks. All the information you need is here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Lisa
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| Stephen Bax and Book of Shadows? |
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Posted by: L.Penny - 03-03-2022, 12:04 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (6)
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Hello, I have just come across this site after watching some Stephen Bax videos on You Tube, which were absolutely fascinating and suggest a very logical and down to earth approach at translating this absolutely fascinating manuscript simply by looking at the linguistic similarities using the plants as a starting point. He also looked at words for Taurus and Aldebaran or Sirius. Anyway, I'm not a techy person so don't go on forums usually and took one look at this site and didn't know where to start. So I thought I would jut dive in and ask some questions.
1. Where can I find out more about work expanding on Stephen's start as he sadly passed away?
2. And also, the manuscript to me looks like it could be some kind of Book of Shadows, as there is obviously sections pertaining to herbs and healing, metaphysical, astrological and divination and what could be some kind of recipes or spells. Is there any other information about that area of study? My mother and I have discussed this possibility over 20 years ago now and finding the videos on You Tube just sparked my interest again.
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| Automatic Transcription |
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Posted by: Mark Knowles - 28-02-2022, 04:28 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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I think I may have addressed this before. However I think it worth mentioning again given that Beata Megyesi and the people at the DECODE database, who I am often in contact with, are looking at potentially creating an automated transcription of the ciphers in their very large collection. I think this is the likely future of the transcription of the Voynich manuscript. As with most automated processes this would be much faster than could be done by a human being. I can foresee an advantage in this in that the user could potentially provide parameters to the transcription program which would affect the way it transcribed the text. For example one might specify that two glyphs are to be treated as the same or alternatively to be treated as different or for example certain glyphs are to be treated as a series of microglyphs or alternatively as one whole glyph. In short multiple different transcriptions could be produced each with different user defined preferences.If you don't like EVA then you could create your own transcription quickly and easily. However the program could potentially suggest which would be a better way to transcribe it e.g. suggest that these two glyph should be treated as one given that they verge into one another with no clear distinction. It could do this by analysing a vast number of instances of a glyph shape in a way that would be difficult for a human to do. I guess it could even some day potentially analyse the text to distinguish between the different authors.
Like many other areas of AI image recognition is progressing a pace and some day will catch up with the Voynich.
As others have already noticed I am quite interested in what the future of Voynich research will be like and how technological advances will continue to revolutionise it as they have in the past with new technologies like the internet.
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| Possibility of Hail in the Middle Right Rosette |
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Posted by: MichelleL11 - 27-02-2022, 02:58 AM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (3)
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I wanted to come back and share my results in attempting to connect the numerous round, blue circles of the middle right rosette with a representation of hail.
I admit to preferring to look at the image with the script "rightway up" -- and that could be wrong. Please note that such preferences can be represented as intrinsic evidence, that is -- evidence that comes from within the manuscript itself. I do find intrinsic evidence to have more weight than extrinsic evidence, so that is why I am presenting the rosette in this format.
However, in the rest of these arguments, I am relying on extrinsic evidence, that is to say other representations outside the VM of as similar as possible imagery. In my opinion, we don't have another example in the manuscript of this precise kind of circular images. And let's be realistic, even if this exact kind of thing was used multiple times within the manuscript, it's all speculation.
I began my extrinsic evidence search, as suggested by Koen, with a look through representative Apocalypse illustrations. Many did not represent the hail of Revelation 16:17-21 at all, or if they did represent hail, it was much more like enlarged raindrops than hail, necessarily. Here are three examples of ones showing this kind of shape that I found:
The Apocalypse of 1313, BNF, Paris, Fr. 13096, f.54r
Dublin Apocalypse, f.25r; IE TCD MS64
Abingdon Apocalypse, Add MS 42555, 3rd quarter of 13th century, French, f.61v
In searching for representations of hail in medieval manuscripts, it also became obvious that limiting to this precise part of the Bible (e.g. the pouring of the seventh vial) didn't necessarily make sense. Here is a representation of hail illustrating another part of Revelation (although combination illustrations are very common, so this might be Rev 16:21 in part) and is closer to what is in the VM in shape, if those blue circles are hail.
The Cloisters Apocalypse, ca. 1330, Normandy, FR, Cloisters, NYC, 68.174, f.20r
The one example I found of explicitly Rev 16:21 and showing regular circular hail is below:
Apocalypse between 1255 and 1360, England and France, London MS M.524 fol. 16r
I could likely find more (as well as more not fitting this scenario) but at this point I had spent the time I had. These last two examples, using very regular circles, do lend some decent support to at least some tradition of using the same exact shape for hail -- so I don't see this possibility as eliminated and I do see it as at least partially supported.
The other issue to be examined is the blue color as the two "regular circle" examples I have show the hail as uncolored -- e.g., just outlines showing through the background color in their centers.
On this question, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has published explicit academic work on the use of color in the Beatus commentary. This work is limited to the Beatus tradition, a particular commentary on the Apocalypse with origins in Spain. If you followed this other You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. you can learn more about Beatus. This is what she had to say about the color of hail in the 27 copies of this type of Apocalypse representations, and the footnote cites specific examples of the colors that she recorded:
But it's not only in the Beatus commentary that hail is often white. Although this is not illustrating Revelation -- here is some white hail illustrating the plague of hail in Exodus 9:19
Weltchronik, Germany, Regensburg, ca. 1360, MS M.769 f. 81v.
Importantly, it wasn't until I extended my search outside of explicit Apocalypse manuscripts into those medieval illustrations that are merely "influenced" by Revelation that I started to see a larger number of consistently parallel illustrations.
The greatest amount of discussion of circular hail I found was by those interested in Tarot card history. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is an example posting that discusses this type of imagery at relative length. A Tarot researcher in this string represented circular hail as a long standing and extremely well known visual tradition from multiple countries -- and the general fact that it comes up in Tarot cards, known for using established, wide-spread imagery that is selected for immediate and emotional impact, supports this.
I know that Marco has delved into Tarot cards as including possible VM related imagery and I see circular hail as another example of this --- not sure if hail came up in his studies.
In this case it is the Tower card that commonly illustrates hail, particularly in the earliest cards. This image provides a composite image of a number of the earliest known Tower cards that often feature various colored circular hail.
Granted, even the earliest of these cards is well after the carbon dating. Left most Tower card is only partial and from the "Cary Sheet"
-- this is part of a sheet of uncut set of cards housed in the Cary collection at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and is considered ca. 1500. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a short article about the sheet that doesn't really delve into the Tower card but is a useful introduction. The poster in the linked string even asserted that a tradition of such shapes may be well known in the German woodcut early printed books, which I found interesting, but that research will be for another day.
Conclusion: So, in my opinion, the strongest and most consistent evidence for the use of regular round circle outlines, possibly blue colored or some other color than white, to represent hail appears most clearly in the image history of Tarot cards, specifically the Tower card, which is thought to be highly influenced by Apocalypse based imagery. In timing, this is well after the VM carbon date. However, stereotypic imagery, such as that used in Tarot cards, had to come from somewhere, so I do think it is a good bet that round circles would evoke hail in a medieval viewer. And the VM round circles seem to be filling up the "earthly plain" (e.g., not in the heavens which is bounded by the nebuly line) also supporting the possibility this is an "earthly" issue such as enormous hail would be. But it remains that this representation is far from universal and is, admittedly, just a possibility (as with everything in the VM). However, I did come away from this work with the feeling that it is a distinct, supported possibility and did enjoy learning more about early Tarot cards. Thanks for reading!
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| Historical Context |
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Posted by: GeoffreySea - 25-02-2022, 06:46 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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I'm new here and am prepared to shock you all by announcing that I do NOT have any new translation of the text. `My apologies.
I am a historian with some expertise in Khazar studies. What I do have is new information about the historical context that would support the manuscript being a Khazar alchemical work. My hypothesis is that it was recopied in the 15th century from a much earlier Khazar original.
I'm not prepared to announce my contextual information here as I am preparing that for publication. What I am seeking is any information that would confirm or refute the idea that the text is Khazar language encoded (reversed). I realize there is no consensus on this but perhaps when my contextual information is made public, there could be consensus.
I am familiar with the Yokubinas interpretation that it is Khazar but I have not seen any other opinions about that. I have also seen the announcements about the "Old Turkic" interpretation and am wondering if Khazar would fit the meaning of "Old Turkic." (I do have some expertise in classifying Khazar language.)
I will say that assumptions that the text came through Byzantine channels are wrong and the context I have discovered is non-Byzantine.
I will add, if it's helpful, that there is new information that Khazar language was close to Crimean Tartar and Karachay language but ancestral to both of those. It would not be very close to Turkish except in general structure.
I'm very willing to work with other scholars on this.
Feel free to e-mail me at GeoffreySea@gmail.com
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