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| Baran Bo Odar |
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Posted by: Davidsch - 22-07-2019, 12:31 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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The director of the series DARK is named Baran bo Odar.
Question to you, because I can not find it on the Internet:
Q:
In what language does "odar" occur and what does it mean?
Bonus Q:
In what language is the word for a type of doctor, as he states, similar to "odar"?
For my full article here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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| VMs (f80v) critter identified |
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Posted by: R. Sale - 16-07-2019, 11:12 PM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (65)
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The “Apocalypse of S Jean” aka BNF Fr. 13096 is dated to 1313.
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A folio from this manuscript was recently posted in J.K. Petersen’s blog discussing the possibility that the elusive VMs (f80v) critter was related to medieval images of the Agnus Dei.
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In a typical representation, the Lamb of God usually supports a cross and/or flag. Obviously the VMs critter does neither and the same is true in the Apocalypse illustration. There we see a lamb on an altar. It is enclosed in a vesical piscis and framed by a cloud-band, which mark its divinity. And below this, if one looks closely, there are a number of small red markings, surely intended to represent the Blood of the Lamb. After all, it is an apocalypse.
Going beyond the specific appearance of the Apocalypse image, there is a simple structure that is basic to this part of the illustration. The structure is a sequence of three parts: the lamb, the cosmic boundary, and the droplets. Knowing this structure, the VMs critter is easily unmasked and clearly identified. Granted that the critter by itself has not been that easy to discover. Various possibilities, including a sheep, have been suggested. The identification is based on the complete structure, not on the appearance.
The recovery of heraldic terminology informs a direct etymological connection between ‘gewolkt’ lines and Wolkenbands. The same substitution of a nebuly line for a cloud-band is seen in the VMs cosmos. While the VMs artist’s best representation of a scallop-shell cloud-band is found in the Central Rosette. And, of course, the nature of the VMs droplets remains ambiguous, but at least they exist as potential droplets, making the same three-part structure as the Apocalypse illustration. And in some sense, it really doesn’t matter how poorly, or how diversely, or how ambiguously the individual parts of the structure are represented, as long as the structure is maintained, and there is some way for the parts to be properly interpreted, despite their appearance, then these are examples of the same structure.
As a lamb or sheep, the form of the VMs critter has been compared with that of the ram seen in the image of the Order of the Golden Fleece, begun by Philip the Good in Burgundy in 1429. Apparently the “Apocalypse of S Jean” was in the library of Philip the Good as well. Speculation must allow that someone of that era could have known the structure of the apocalypse image and substituted a reversed representation of the Burgundian fleece in place of the lamb while retaining the other parts. Not only that, if this occurred in the 1430s, it is still within the parchment dates.
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| 2019 Symposium on Cryptologic History |
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Posted by: doranchak - 15-07-2019, 09:18 PM - Forum: News
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The program for this conference has been released:
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There is one Voynich talk:
Quote:Dr. Gregor Damschen - A Fibonacci-Based Lunisolar Calendar in the Voynich Manuscript (Beinecke MS 408, f68r3)
Folio 68r3 of the Voynich Manuscript (Beinecke MS 408) has meaningful content. The numbers of stars of the circle image encode a Fibonacci-based formula which allows to synchronize synodic lunar months and tropical sun years. This presentation will present this explanation in detail, thus proving the manuscript itself is not a hoax.
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| Tim King's et al. translation |
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Posted by: Gioynich - 10-07-2019, 10:47 PM - Forum: News
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Just found this new paper: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
proposing that the Voynich is written in a Vulgar Latin dialect, likely affected by a contemporary Italian dialect.
I haven't had much time to read it thoroughly, but it's one of the first papers I see with a clear methodology and translations that make some sense.
Thoughts?
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| [split] On the validation of Theories |
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Posted by: davidjackson - 02-07-2019, 10:07 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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The problem, if I may interject into this little discussion, is that whilst there are several interesting probable theories out there, there aren't any ways of proving these theories.
Torsten's theory is fascinating, but unprovable. So is Rugg's, realistically. There are a half dozen more out there. Same for the "it's real" theory, probable but no more provable than Torsten's. Or even SantaColumna's hoax theory.
I'm afraid that picking a camp amongst any of these theories is like Brexit. Ultimately, nobody knows and two "experts" can both hold diametrically opposing views - and both can be right (for a given value of "right"). You just choose the one that "feels right" to you and then you become emotionally involved.
So really, the only option is to be theory agnostic and evaluate all of them with an open mind. Personally, I'm putting all the theories that pass critical evaluation to one side in the hope that something pops up in the future that lends weight to one or the other.
So let's not get too emotionally involved in any theory. At the end of the day, it's all supposed to be a fun intellectual game. Or, in the words of the immortal Dilbert:
![[Image: 2005-02-17voting.gif]](https://shadowdemocracy.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/2005-02-17voting.gif)
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| [split] (lack of) word groups |
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Posted by: -JKP- - 01-07-2019, 12:07 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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[Edit by Koen: I split this thread for the discussion of a statement by Gordon Rugg]
I actually agree with some of the statements in the article, even though Rugg and I have different perspectives on the VMS, but this statement:
"Here’s one example. All real languages have regularities in word order. In English, ‘I drink coffee’ is a grammatically accurate sentence but ‘coffee drink I’ isn’t. But the words in the Voynich Manuscript You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in their order. That reason alone is enough to eliminate all known languages from being candidates..."
... is a rather context-dependent statement. If the VMS is a simple substitution cipher, then maybe this kind of generalization can be made, but I'm pretty sure it isn't.
It isn't even necessarily a cipher.
Even if it is a cipher, it doesn't take much manipulation to obscure underlying sentence structure, and thus the grammar (if there is any).
Plus, it's not necessarily true that there are no regularities in the word order. There are line patterns and paragraph patterns. This doesn't necessarily mean Voynichese is natural language, but it does mean there are regularities of certain kinds throughout the text. It's not random.
So I think we have to be careful about statements like this until we have a better understanding of VMS text.
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| [Merged] Stars identified |
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Posted by: Monica Yokubinas - 27-06-2019, 05:01 PM - Forum: Astrology & Astronomy
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These are the stars that i have identified so far on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Some of these translations coincide with some very old names for the stars in the constellations. I had to reverse the image so it would match a current star chart that i have.
VM translation = Ahyan or Ain in Hebrew and Arabic and means eye. Ain was the name of the star Epsilon Tauri, the eye of the bull Taurus.
VM translation = Ryaz or Ra’as is the ancient name for Al-Ghul/Algol or Beta Persei the Demon Star.
VM translation = ayang = Al-Janah or the wing is Epsilon Cygni.
VM translation = Achayayaz or Mirzan Al-Jawza, is Sirius. Ach can mean firepot or brother.
VM translation aurig or Auriga is clearly translated as it is.
There one for the white spot of Orion is in the wrong place and I am trying to figure it out. Could be they misused a name for a different part of the constellation. I'll update when complete.
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| Unconventional Methods in Voynich Manuscript Analysis |
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Posted by: Torsten - 26-06-2019, 11:25 PM - Forum: News
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New article about the VMS: "You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view."
The article is open access. The authors use fractal geometry to analyze the VMS alongside the Ernst Hemingway book "The Old Man and the Sea", and the Bible.
The authors conclude:
Quote:Our results indicate, that Voynich manuscript is likely written in some natural language because a) its fractal dimension set it among the Hemingway’s novel The Old Man and the Sea, analyzed in the same way in 120 languages, b) complex network maps, generated from Voynich manuscript is significantly different from complex networks maps based on random texts.
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| Manly's views about the Voynich MS |
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Posted by: ReneZ - 26-06-2019, 10:15 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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Nick wrote:
Quote:If anyone has access to articles written by John Matthews Manly about the Voynich I'd be very interested to see them. I suspect that he had a different opinion again, but it would be nice to know either way for sure.
I am aware of three papers:
- The Most Mysterious Manuscript in the World: Did Roger Bacon Write It and Has the Key Been Found? in Harper's Monthly Magazine 143 (1921): pp. 186-97
- Roger Bacon's Cypher Manuscript, American Review of Reviews, LXIV, 1921, pp.105-106
- Roger Bacon and the Voynich MS. Speculum 6, July 1931, pp. 345-391
The second is probably a summary of the first and I don't have it. I have the other two, but suspect so has Nick. The first is a fence-sitting review of Newbold, while the third is a refutation.
More interesting is what Manly thought himself about what the text represents.
There is a note by Anne Nill in the Grolier Library that says:
Quote:Prof. Manly in his letter of March 26, 1920, to W.M.V says:
"I still think there is a possibility that the cipher is less complicated than he [Prof.Newbold] believes, and is largely disguised by the use of nulls. As we are entirely ignorant of the language underlying the cipher, it seems me the only way in which the nulls can be isolated is by comparing the relative frequencies of the symbols on a considerable number of pages. I have as you know, eight sheets. This number is, I think, hardly sufficient for the purpose in question.
It seems that Voynich then sent him more sheets. Also, he had sent a similar letter to Newbold.
The first letter is likely to be preserved in the Beinecke, but I have not seen it.
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