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[split] Stolfi's Core-mantle-crust model
- [split] Stolfi's Core-mantle-crust model
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[split] Stolfi's Core-mantle-crust model
-JKP- > 10-04-2020, 06:17 AM
I keep seeing mentions of core-mantle-crust. When I can find time I will have to look into it so I understand what people are talking about. -
RE: Mark Knowles' theories of pharma and other labels
MarcoP > 10-04-2020, 08:17 AM
It's easy to be mislead by the similar structure of system names like prefix-stem-suffix and core-mantle-crust. A huge difference is that core-mantle-crust actually is based on 5 word parts:
crust-mantle-core-mantle-crust
i.e. there are both a core-prefix and core-suffix and a mantle-prefix and mantle-suffix. All the parts are optional and actually I don't think any single actual word features all the five components. The "core" basically is a gallows character: the main concept could be that at most a single gallows appears in a voynichese word.
The mantle is largely made of curve-glyphs: e-sequences and benches.
The two crust-layers are those characters that only appear as prefixes of suffixes.
A while ago, I translated Stolfi's grammar (as well as You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) to python-lark, so that I can plot parse trees for them.
Here is an example of an invented word (qochepchody) that contains all the 5 components in Stolfi's model. -
RE: Mark Knowles' theories of pharma and other labels
-JKP- > 10-04-2020, 10:30 AM
Okay. That's useful information. Thank you, both.
Core-mantle-crust is not how I see the text, but it's better if I have a basic understanding of the concepts people are discussing, than not. -
RE: Mark Knowles' theories of pharma and other labels
Mark Knowles > 10-04-2020, 12:50 PM
(10-04-2020, 08:17 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's easy to be mislead by the similar structure of system names like prefix-stem-suffix and core-mantle-crust. A huge difference is that core-mantle-crust actually is based on 5 word parts:
crust-mantle-core-mantle-crust
i.e. there are both a core-prefix and core-suffix and a mantle-prefix and mantle-suffix. All the parts are optional and actually I don't think any single actual word features all the five components. The "core" basically is a gallows character: the main concept could be that at most a single gallows appears in a voynichese word.
The mantle is largely made of curve-glyphs: e-sequences and benches.
The two crust-layers are those characters that only appear as prefixes of suffixes.
A while ago, I translated Stolfi's grammar (as well as You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) to python-lark, so that I can plot parse trees for them.
Here is an example of an invented word (qochepchody) that contains all the 5 components in Stolfi's model.
But when we are talking about this I think we are not saying that all Voynichese words conform to this structure unless this structure is defined in a way that it is so flexible that any series of glyphs that one can conceive of can be made to fit this structure. e.g. I have seen words that end in a gallows character. Are we saying that these structures are universal i.e. there is not one Voynichese word that doesn't fit them or are we saying they are very common?
I think often when we talk about Voynichese it is important to make a distinction between those phenomena that apply to all Voynichese words and those phenomena that apply to a majority(maybe a large majority) of Voynichese words. There are lots of properties of Voynichese that are described, but the extent to which they breakdown when expected to describe every single Voynichese word is significant, I think. -
RE: [split] Stolfi's Core-mantle-crust model
Koen G > 10-04-2020, 04:32 PM
I split off a thread dedicated to discussion of the core-mantle-crust model.
Am I the only one who finds it counter-intuitive to think of gallows as "core"? They feel much more fronted, I would probably put them in the front-part of the mantle. And then there is no core... -
RE: [split] Stolfi's Core-mantle-crust model
-JKP- > 10-04-2020, 04:33 PM
Thank you for giving this topic its own thread. There might be a number of people like me who were not aware of Stolfi's basic concept and might like to talk about it.
I don't think of gallows as core in the way that core-mantle-crust lays it out, but I need to read through it again to really understand it. It's new to me and it sometimes takes me a couple of days of mulling over a system before I can talk about it in any sensible way.
I often find that what people write is bunk. But I also sometimes find that parts of a person's idea are worth discussing even if the idea veers off somewhere. I'll look at it again after work. -
RE: [split] Stolfi's Core-mantle-crust model
ReneZ > 10-04-2020, 06:18 PM
Wow.
Yes read first
(all commenters).
As far as I can tell, Marco is the only one who has....
To answer Mark's question: the formal grammar described by Stolfi explains 96.3% of all words in the MS. -
RE: [split] Stolfi's Core-mantle-crust model
Mark Knowles > 10-04-2020, 07:56 PM
(10-04-2020, 06:18 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Wow.
Yes read first (all commenters).
As far as I can tell, Marco is the only one who has....
To answer Mark's question: the formal grammar described by Stolfi explains 96.3% of all words in the MS.
Thanks Rene
I think is important in general when discussing properties of Voynichese to ask what percentage of Voynichese they apply to. So for example when we talk about something like glyph pair entropy these are obviously statistics pertaining to a whole set of Voynichese words and of course not necessarily all subsets of that set. So there could be a large subset of Voynichese for which the glyph pair entropy statistics are quite different. Likewise from the point of view of someone who thinks we have a mixture of nonsense text and meaningful text I think it is always helpful when discussing any patterns or structure or format or properties of Voynich text whether they are Universal or very very common or just common.