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VM TTR values |
Posted by: Koen G - 14-06-2019, 12:45 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (75)
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Since the main discussion is going on in the off-topic section, I thought it might be worthwhile to make a separate thread for discussion of the VM values.
Once again I'd like to thank everyone who helped me out, many interventions were required for me to get to this point. I would be so hopeless without you guys.
I redid everything using Rene's ZL2a file (more spaces) as recommended by Nablator. From this I isolated five sections:
- Herbal A
- Herbal B
- Q13
- Small plants (with labels removed, so only the paragraphs)
- Q20
I then used Nablator's code to calculate the following MATTR window sizes: 2, 3, 4, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100, 500.
Using my corpus of 471 texts, I calculated mean and stdev for each window. This allowed me to normalize the values.
The result is as follows:
Naamloos-2 kopiëren.gif (Size: 26.88 KB / Downloads: 361)
As you can see, both B-sections (orange and red) behave similarly.
Herbal A and the paragraphs from the small plants behave very similarly as well. Is the latter entirely A?
And Q13 has overall much lower values. The way I read the graph, this appears to be the result of larger distance repetitions. Below 5, it starts to approach the other sections again.
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Glyph combinations across word breaks in the Voynich Manuscript |
Posted by: Emma May Smith - 03-06-2019, 06:24 PM - Forum: News
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New article in Cryptologia:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Abstract:
Quote:The text of the Voynich manuscript exhibits relationships between neighboring words that have not formally been explored. The last and first glyphs of adjacent words show some dependency, and certain glyph combinations are more or less likely to occur. The patterns of preferences for glyph combinations demonstrate the existence of higher-level glyph groups. The behavior of the glyph combinations may arise due to changes in a glyph caused by its neighbor.
(I'm happy to discuss the philosophy of open access academic publishing with anybody. Please PM me.)
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17r and a very controversial subject matter f.g.m. |
Posted by: Monica Yokubinas - 02-06-2019, 11:09 PM - Forum: Imagery
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f17r translation of the plant is not about a plant. I always work out the translation before finding a plant, and this one is talking about something even today the UN passed a resolution on because it causes "irreparable and irreversible abuse" I took the right side words and the words in the plant and moved to the bottom, because they did not fit where placed if you were going straight across.
Beloved weaver, a binding oath, of sexual wrongdoing and harm, meddle in wrath. Adorn the Gapar (term used for female anatomy from an unused root meaning ‘to house in”). My brother will be exalted of slime/secretions taking action of life and dew seduced sweep up heap. According to the rune, weaver sing, my brother is the Lord of slime/secretions and God of taking action. God listens and comes down from his throne to answer, take advantage of the heap, a supernatural event, to exist_*_. Sweep then aggressively truthful then spin the grey head and thoroughly long live to vex. To sweep lord beauty to vex, beauty and crown to live favored. Respect and honor like darkness to make happen beauty, and crown shout for joy, beauty because he will reap what he sows in this truce, friend lord. Rest fair basket. Alas, hated one, this removed. There is a reason for it, my own Lord forever. She is bound to husband home oath. Sing a joyful song fair basket. Friend beauty to make happen, dew seduced and fornication then brother elevated. Long live noble wise atonement a lofty shrine. Heathen weaver snatch up. Female daughters wings removed and vulva from basket form. Long live to make intercession weaver. Moisture to sweep, not grown up, rest.
two key words in the Voynich Manuscript: one is ‘to spin’ create, preserve, or fashion and the other is ‘weaver” the person doing the creating, the yaya or grandmother, the wise one, the matriarch of the family. In this instance there are 2 weavers the beloved and the goy or Heathen. So who is the villan?
Note the red and bleeding 'eyes' in the root system, the 3 flowers at the top of the plant, and the 12 leaves. (most girls were cut around the time of their dowry, before the first menses. It was tradition like a right of passage. So is she advocating for cutting or possibly protecting the girl?
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[split] f6r plant |
Posted by: -JKP- - 01-06-2019, 02:55 AM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (27)
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(01-06-2019, 02:17 AM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
I have been consistent in my methodology for example You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a pitcher plant and here is the translation:
...
(01-06-2019, 02:00 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't think it looks like a pitcher plant (in fact, I think I know what plant it is), but if it is a pitcher plant, then are you saying the VMS (or the VMS plants) originated in tropical Asia or Madagascar?
(01-06-2019, 01:43 AM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.amazing what we all think we know... never stop learning. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I know you wanted to prove me wrong, Monica, but Drosophyllum lusitanicum is not a pitcher plant.
It is related to the sundew plants (a different kind of carnivorous plant), several of which are native to Europe. It's not surprising that it would be found on the Iberian peninsula. Look at the long thin tendrils, similar to many European sundew (Drosera) plants:
Image Credit: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You can't call that a pitcher plant. It doesn't have pitchers. You can't say Drosophyllum is a European pitcher plant because it's not directly related to Nepenthes (eastern pitcher plants) or the Sarracenias (the New World pitcher plants). Here are some pics of pitcher plants. They are distinctly different from sundews:
Image Credit: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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F82r as the Black Sea |
Posted by: Linda - 31-05-2019, 08:27 PM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (11)
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I am referring to the bottom half of the page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. with regard to this dentification of the Black Sea.
1375 Cresques Abraham, 1380 Guillem Soler, 1436 Andrea Biancho
1489 Albino de Canepa, 16th century Ottoman, 21st century NASA
I chose these because they best show the features i want to correlate with the vms imagery.
Note that the Sea of Azov is not drawn on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. thus Crimea does not stand out, it is simply shoreline. It is also more to the east than truly situated. The northwest shore has been straightened and turned somewhat. This could be commentary, since so far i have not found a map with Crimea too far to the east, but there are many to be found too far to the west, even centuries after the carbon dating.
1656
Actually there are two nymphs situated on or near Crimea, it is just skewed, what is southwest facing in reality is shown as pointing south in the vms drawing. Also, the blue port is part of the shape of the waterbody in the vms, although it appears as though it is not due to the colour change and the nymph herself, ie the nymph makes it seem like the lake ends to the left of her, rather than on the right. However the nebuly line does continue around this feature. Therefore the Crimean peninsula is not drawn as far to the east as it may seem. This nebuly effect of the shore also hides some of the port /river imagery. It is somewhat reminiscent of the bubbly effect in some portolan maps of the Black Sea.
Here are what i believe are the most likely identifications of each part of the vms drawing.
The far left nymph is standing in a river port, it would be the Danube delta. The 'thing' is to show that there is another way to get here, and points the way she came, via the Danube, but we got here via the route through the Sea of Marmora. Notably, the nymph i identify as Genoa on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. holds one too.
The next feature clockwise is a mountain river with another joining it at an angle. This corresponds to the Dniester. You can see the double forks of the 1489 version, and a 'Y' on the 1436 version where the straight part does indeed show to come from a mountain. The 16th century version also shows the mountain connection. The satellite version is actually the closest match, i think. The river rises in the Carpathian mountains.
The nymph to the right of this stands in a river port, and this would be the Dnieper river, shown as a delta in all the nautical charts.
The next nymph is located on the southern shore of Crimea, likely in the area of Genoese colonization, denoted by the Genoese flags on the nautical charts.
It is also mountanous there. I think i am starting to understand the nymphs more. They are the Earth. In particular they are newer earth. Mountains which have formed, rivers flowing down bring silt and create deltas, forming new land where there used to be just water, etc.. That is why they are drawn as pregnant, they all are in the process of giving birth to new earth, whether through uplift, erosion, or perhaps it is the formation of cities which is referenced.
Next is the Cimmerian Bosphorus, or Kerch Strait, in the form of a spray which then drips down. This would be the connection to the Sea of Azov, if it were drawn here. The spray motif seems a bit like the spray coming from the facing page imagery of f81v, which i think is depicting the Sea of Azov, except it is backwards in its presentation, both preceding the Black Sea page and presented in mirror image. I think this has to do with staying in Europe for this part of the tour., but coming back to it to continue the tour of Asia. Perhaps this may be seen as my attempting to fit the imagery to my story, but a) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. looks a lot like the sea of Azov, especially in a low water state, the number of nymphs basically works with the number of points on the shore. b) there is nothing between the Sea of Marmora and the Black Sea which it could be instead, c) The Sea of Azov would otherwise be missing. So i am going with either obfuscation or poetic licence as explanation for the imagery being out of order. It is sometimes thought of as being part of the Black Sea, and due to its northern situation, both seas were often drawn upside down on maps, so that may also have to do with the ordering, although it does not follow the flow of water per se. The Sea of Azov was thought by early geographers to be as big as the Black Sea, which may explain why it is drawn so large as well.
Next, at the far right, is the Rioni River, or as the ancient Greeks called it, the Phasis river. Again it is hard to know what time period we are talking about, but Herodotus thought it to be the deliniation between Europe and Asia. The river rises in the Caucasus mountains.
On the left again, at the bottom, we have a nymph representing Thracia or Constantinople, depending on the time period. She is pointing at a larger nymph's abdomen. She points similarly to the nymph in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. where i took it to mean the people of those places could see each other. I think this is analogous to being able to see Bithynia's highest point from 70 km away in Istanbul.
This again leads me to liken the bellies to mountains. And the outstretched foot, perhaps that is sea level, and why so many nymphs seem buried or submerged, although i had a thought that may indicate time, ie how long the area has been populated.
I think the next two nymphs stand for Amasra and its great island, given one label, and the fact that i have lately interpreted bodiless nymphs as islands, or she could represent Heraclea Pontica., and together they stand for Paphlagonia. Amasra at one point became part of the Kingdom of Trebizond, then fell under the rule of the Republic of Genoa, until the Ottoman takeover. It is also interesting that the original Paphlagonians are thought to have left the area with some Trojan survivors to populate Venetia. Perhaps some of this explains the ring/mirror and/or crown.
I think the next three cover the region of Pontus denoting perhaps Sinope, which is situated at the bump in the middle,
Ordu, and Trabzond. Again there is a Genoan connection.
I think the top of the page relates to taking either the Dniester, Dnieper or the Don river up to the Bay of Finland, through the Baltic to the North Sea, following the shore of Europe back down to Lisbon, where the nymph sleeps, perhaps this is home, or home away from home. There were various nationalities of cartographers living in Lisbon at the time of the vms carbon dating.
I found the 1489 map interesting as the upside down tents are very reminiscent of the embellishments in the river shown at the top of the vms page. I think the embellishments stand for mountains. In the Genoese map of 1457, it shows the Dniester river as the one going to the Baltic, past mountains. The Fra Mauro map of about the same time period shows the same, in a different but direct route from the Dniester, past mountains although alternate routes are also shown involving any of the three rivers i have mentioned.
These maps of Genoese and Venetian routes also shows it to be the Dniester, and is proof of concept insofar as such travelling had been accomplished. However it requires an understanding of the Hanseatic league routes. Perhaps such info was gained through sharing of knowledge at the Council of Constance. The last image in this set shows the origins of the Council attendees.
The page opposite this one, f82v, shows again European areas we had seen before in the tour, including the Spanish shoreline and the Alps. I believe the page meant to follow that one is f75r, being the Caspian Sea, which starts the Asia and Africa part of the tour.
In terms of the complete tour, my suggested page order is 76, 80, 84, 77, 78, 81, 82, 75, 79, 83
Let me know what you think about these correlations. There may be mythologies involved, many of these places were named in the Iliad and other works as well.
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Usefulness of categorizing words based on occurances in different parts of the MS? |
Posted by: joben - 30-05-2019, 03:42 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (24)
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I was wondering if this method is feasable:
The MS contains 6 different "parts", Herbal, Astronomical, Biological, Cosmological, Pharmaceutical and the Recipe part.
If I went through the Herbal part and wrote down the numbers of occurances for each word, and also the number of occurances per "part", I could hopefully draw some conclusions what type of words this is.
For instance, let's say I find a word in the herbal that exists in about 50% of the herbal pages, 15% of the pharmaecutical pages, 10% of the recipe pages and 5% of the biological pages, it means the word could mean something like "water, nutrition, stem, seed". This is not awfully specific, but what if this scenario happened:
A word is found in the herbal that only occurs a total of 3 times in the entire MS. The other two occurances are in the astronomical and the recipe part.
If this word is nearby a zodiac illustration, it means that the plant could theoretically share the name with the zodiac. If we want to identify the plant name, this could be a good approach. If a word is so uncommon that it only occurs 3 times in this massive MS and in different parts, it could be an indication that this is a name rather than a word.
Has this been done already or is this approach bad? Thanks for taking your time.
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Basic stats summary |
Posted by: RobGea - 30-05-2019, 03:19 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (1)
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Hi all,
it would be most helpful if there was a basic stats summary somewhere,
just for basic word count and such from individual transcriptions.
Something like this:
Transcription:
TT_ivtff_v0a
IVTFF Eva- 1.5
# Extracted from LSI_ivtff_0d.txt
# Version v0a of 26/08/2017
Notes:
words with question marks rejected.
'<->' replaced with space
Stats:
Total word count: 37759
distinct words: 8026
Hapax legomenon: 5527
words occurring twice or more: 2499 (anywhere in the manuscript)
wordsoccurring2ormoretimes: of length: 11 How many: 0
wordsoccurring2ormoretimes: of length: 10 How many: 6
wordsoccurring2ormoretimes: of length: 9 How many: 57
wordsoccurring2ormoretimes: of length: 8 How many: 204
wordsoccurring2ormoretimes: of length: 7 How many: 456
wordsoccurring2ormoretimes: of length: 6 How many: 638
wordsoccurring2ormoretimes: of length: 5 How many: 599
wordsoccurring2ormoretimes: of length: 4 How many: 328
wordsoccurring2ormoretimes: of length: 3 How many: 145
wordsoccurring2ormoretimes: of length: 2 How many: 48
wordsoccurring2ormoretimes: of length: 1 How many: 18
EOF
This kind of thing would be a great boon to baseline/calibrate any code.
Yes it's all been done before, but finding the actual data is a pain.
An easy to find reference would be good, esp. if several folks could agree on the numbers.
If anyone knows where to find such a thing , that would be great.
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Recovery of traditional terminology |
Posted by: R. Sale - 28-05-2019, 10:19 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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Investigation of the VMs balneological section (Quire 13) will discover many potential distractions before, if ever, reaching the point of examining the traditional aspects of lines and line structure. Nevertheless, there is a type of line, patterned in a certain way, that is repeated on various pages of the ‘bathing’ section. This is a type of line pattern that wanders back and forth in a regular repetition of a wavy design, where the crests and troughs have been rounded and fattened. The descriptive terminology that has long been applied to the interpretation of these lines has included words such as ‘undulating’ and ‘meandering’, both of which are good descriptive terms for this pattern. Not that long ago, a new term was introduced to this insignificant sliver of VMs investigation, as another way to describe this same line pattern, where the crests and troughs are defined as bulbous. This term, which is actually a small set of words from the various European languages, derives from the earliest era of heraldry and is based either on the Latin (nebula) for ‘cloud’ or the German (Wolke) which is also the word for ‘cloud.’
The line pattern may now be well designated by either of these terms: ‘undulating’, ‘meandering’ or the new ‘nebuly / gewolkt’ set of heraldic terms. If the three definitions are equivalent, what is the difference between these words? The difference is not in the denotation /definition, but in the connotation based of the etymologies of the three words. ‘Undulating’ derives from the Latin (unda) for ‘wave.’ “Meander’ is the name of a wandering river in Asia Minor. And the nebuly / gewolkt (just nebuly for short) interpretation derives from clouds, as mentioned above. Which interpretation works best in the VMs illustrations? It may seem that waves and rivers are well suited to bathing. However, in the interpretation of the VMs pangolin /armadillo creature, the cloud-based interpretation is also interesting. If the two horizontal nebuly lines represent clouds and the short vertical lines below represent rain, then this is an illustration of the cloud-based process of condensation. And since the medieval perspective requires that matter is inert, the creature represents the necessary, motive force.
Nebuly lines occur in a few other parts of the VMs, outside of Quire 13, and nebuly line variations are also found in the VMs rosettes. A nebuly line is required to be bulbous, but that does not limit examples of nebuly lines to a single possibility. The bulb may split into two protrusions (also found in heraldry), or into a three-part head and shoulders projection. The outer part of the bulb may have a series of small rounded bumps creating the elegant, artistic, scallop-shell pattern, or the nebuly line may be rendered with an engrailed / invected line pattern throughout. This last is the case in the example of the VMs Central Rosette. The artistic term for this this technique from the scallop-shell pattern to many other variations is Wolkenband or cloud band. So the cloud-based connotation clearly plays a useful part in the interpretation of these elements as well.
The third location for a nebuly line is in the VMs cosmos (f68v3), where the cloud-based interpretation of the nebuly line, along with the equivalent 43 undulations, makes strong connection with the historical illustration, BNF Fr. 565 fol.23. This comparison is a separate topic.
Nebuly lines are found in a fourth location. Three examples occur where a distinctive undulating line is found as a leaf margin for the representations of several plants in the initial, botanical section of the VMs. Contrary to the previous three examples where a cloud-based connotation helped to clarify the interpretation, here none of the possible connotations seem to make much contribution. Besides which, real botanical specimens don’t do well in confirming this trait in plant physiognomy. So, there’s a problem. Just another in the list of VMs problems.
What has been lacking is not an enthusiastic investigation of the VMs. Every couple of months someone finds *the* solution. It’s like slow motion popcorn. What has been lacking is an understanding of the VMs. And by necessity this must be an understanding on our part that is commensurate with the information that the VMs presents. And in this example, that is provided by the recovery of traditional terminology from heraldic sources that now informs our interpretation, where it wasn’t informed before. The traditional set of heraldic terms, using the cloud-based interpretation, provides the most useful explanation and understanding in three of the four examples above. What’s up with the fourth example?
The fourth example of nebuly lines is really the first example sequentially, starting from the front pages of the VMs botanical section. For a long time, from the origins of modern VMs investigation, before the recovery of traditional terminology, the working interpretations did not make good sense, either as leaf margins or as anything else. The cloud-based interpretation does not help with the leaf margins, but it does lend significant clarity in the three other examples. These illustrations provide, and by extension the creator of these illustrations also provides, these demonstrations that rely on the use of the cloud-based connotation that was derived from earlier heraldic tradition, which was well established at the time of VMs creation and subsequently. Correct interpretation of these illustrations depends on the traditional knowledge of the cloud-based connotation.
Consider how attention might be drawn toward certain artistic elements in an illustration. If they are included with other similar and related elements, if they are shown where they belong, it is less likely that they will be given special notice. On the other hand, if those elements are placed where they clearly do not belong, then they will stand out. These three examples in the botanical section are nebuly lines first and leaf margins second, but only after traditional terminology has been recovered. They are not leaf margins first and wobbly lines of some kind as they have been misunderstood. An educated person in Europe in the 1400’s would not need to have all of this explained. Such a person, upon noticing the three examples scattered among the leaves, knowing the name and the origin of this design element, and thus being more alert to other occurances and aware of the proper cloud-based interpretations involved in the other three examples, would have a better understanding of these examples, an understanding that ostensibly possesses a greater similarity to what the person who created these images intended, than what it would be otherwise, without the cloud-based interpretation. As it has been. This is the significance of the recovery of traditional terminology. When it can be shown that something was known and used by the VMs creator, it only makes sense to try to use this as part of the investigation. And when VMs research begins with the knowledge of the nebuly line and its cloud-based connotation, then the potential opportunity exists for investigation to follow these traditional lines of inquiry, which are belatedly *new* to VMs research, but would have been much clearer to scholars of the 1400s, because this information (the cloud-based connotation of heraldry) was their tradition, as represented in the use and interpretation of the nebuly lines.
This is not the whole VMs solution on a platter, but based on the historical evidence, it would seem to be a small part of it, a genuine part of it, and perhaps even a key part of it. Potentially it is a part that opens a new interpretation, and a set of new interpretations based on the recovery of traditional terminology and other relevant bits of information. The cloud-based interpretation ties in with the investigation of the VMs rosette cloud bands and, also, with the cosmic comparison.
At this point, only two examples of these odd, ‘Aristotelian’ type of geocentric, cosmic representations are known that will fit this description: An inverted T-O Earth at the center, surrounded by stars, contained in a Wolkenband. And the two available illustrations that fit this description are the VMs cosmos and BNF Fr. 565 fol 23 located to Paris about 1410. Despite this structural similarity, however, the visual comparison presents two very different visual representations.
The visual differences are immediately apparent. The inverted T-O earth of BNF Fr 565 fol. 23 is a pictorial representation as is common in other medieval illustrations, such as BNF Fr. 1082, which is from a different copy of the same book by Nicole Oresme. The VMs is cleanly not a visual copy. Instead of being pictorial, the VMs has gone with a linguistic presentation. This is a total change in methodology. This is a code shift. It cannot help but be a completely different image. The surrounding stars are also quite different. The verbs used in Latin and French make no distinction between ‘surrounded’ and ‘encircled’. The comparison between the scattered stars of BNF Fr. 565 fol. 233 and the encircling stars of the VMs that look like beads on a string clearly demonstrate that there is a visual difference. Yet the similarity is still stronger here compared to BNF Fr. 1082, which has no stars at all. The third comparison is between the scallop-shell cloud band of the BNF Fr. 565 fol. 23 illustration and the nebuly line of the VMs illustration. Both are interpreted using the cloud-based connotation. Both show 43 undulations. Again, it is the same structure, but with a clearly differing visual presentation. And BNF Fr. 1082, meanwhile, has an elaborate Wolkenband based on a different artistic technique.
Finally, in the VMs, the jig is up. The trick is revealed. The great outer circle and the curved spokes that connect it can be viewed as part of the medieval tradition concerning the representation of textual banners, meaning that their presence in the illustration is ephemeral, *not structural*. The banners have been put in place; they exist in the VMs cosmos for the purpose of creating visual difference. Visual difference, the alteration of appearance and the retention of basic structure seem to be the lessons of the cosmic comparison. The recovery of traditional terminology provides a solid basis for further investigation. It also provides a first glimpse at how deep the enigma might be. Heraldic patterns and the recovery of traditional terminology from heraldry continue to play a part in further VMs investigation. The recovery of traditional terminology redefines the investigational space.
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