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• Another ancient "map"?

• Another ancient "map"?

  Mark Knowles > 12-11-2023, 09:43 AM

  As is known I hypothesize that the Rosettes Folio is a map. However it has been said that it doesn't look sufficiently like a map to be one. Here is a different hypothesized map->
  
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• RE: Another ancient "map"?

  merrimacga > 12-11-2023, 09:30 PM

  Hardly the oldest one in Europe either. It can be argued that the oldest "map" in the world (so far) is the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. dating back to 25,000 BC/BCE. A set of two carvings in a woolly mammoth tusk depicting a mountain, river, valleys and routes, it was discovered in 1962 in the Pavlov I archaeological site in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in the Moravian region of what is now the Czech Republic.
  
   
  
  Line drawing source link: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Also in Europe, also carved on a woolly mammoth tusk, and also considered a "map", is the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of the area depicting huts along the river. It was found in 1965 and dates very roughly to 15,000 BC/BCE.
  
  
  
  And then there is also the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. found in Navarre, Spain in 1994, which have been dated to roughly 13,660 BC/BCE.
  
   
  
  Image source: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  This You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and this You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. discuss other "oldest maps", including the Çatalhöyük map, a wall mural found in the proto-city settlement of the same name in Anatolia (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., PDF pg 91 in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. paper by Duygu Seçil Çamurcuoğlu). The settlement dates to circa 7,500-5,200 BC/BCE and the "map" dates to 6,600 BC/BCE. The first episode of the third season of Cosmos did a fascinating recreation of the settlement.
  
  Truly, if we want to consider the Rosettes folio in the VM as a map, it would be fairer to compare it to other contemporaneous drawings rather than going all the way back to ancient archaeological examples. Everything is a matter of perspective and we might today consider a map something that was created in ancient times but something similar created in the Middle Ages we might judge by a different standard due to more advanced methods and standards at the time of creation. But if such ancient depictions as these can be considered maps, which is still debated, there is no reason the Rosettes in the VM can't also be considered maps as well.

• RE: Another ancient "map"?

  Mark Knowles > 16-11-2024, 07:24 PM

  Babylonian map
  
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  Maps look like maps when you already know that they are maps.
  
  I would contest that the Voynich rosettes folio looks, on the face of it, much more like a map than these earlier maps.

• RE: Another ancient "map"?

  Antonio García Jiménez > 16-11-2024, 08:22 PM

  I think that comparing the Rosettes page with maps from thousands of years ago is somewhat anachronistic. 
  
  The fact that there is a walled city in the Rosettes does not have to mean that the entire page is a terrestrial map. It could well be that it is the place from whose meridian astronomical magnitudes were measured. That's why I think it's a representation of the medieval universe.
  
  Nothing comparable to this Rosettes page has been found. That is why our only guide is the Voynich codex itself. There are other pages where those pipes that we see in the Rosettes appear, in the zodiacal section and in Quire 13. For the sake of consistency, we must think that the drawings mean the same thing. The medieval universe was a complicated machinery with nested spheres that had to be traversed, which is why I believe those pipes were drawn.

• RE: Another ancient "map"?

  Mark Knowles > 16-11-2024, 10:10 PM

  (16-11-2024, 08:22 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There are other pages where those pipes that we see in the Rosettes appear, in the zodiacal section and in Quire 13. For the sake of consistency, we must think that the drawings mean the same thing.

  I don't think we need to say that very loosely similar drawings automatically must represent the same things throughout the manuscript.
  A "pipe" or "cannon", as I think they are, on the Rosettes folio, is a essentially a cylinder which is one of the most simple mathematical shapes, so it could easily represent more than one thing.

• RE: Another ancient "map"?

  Mark Knowles > 16-11-2024, 10:14 PM

  (16-11-2024, 08:22 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think that comparing the Rosettes page with maps from thousands of years ago is somewhat anachronistic. 

  I don't only compare it with those maps.
  My point was that is that the identification of historical maps is not always easy, especially in the case of something like the Voynich where the text cannot be read.

• RE: Another ancient "map"?

  Mark Knowles > 16-11-2024, 10:28 PM

  (16-11-2024, 08:22 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The fact that there is a walled city in the Rosettes does not have to mean that the entire page is a terrestrial map.

  There are enough other reasons to think it is a map. My theory is not only based on the top right rosette.
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