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Welcome, Guest You have to register before you can post on our site. Username/Email:    Password    Remember me Search Forums (Advanced Search) Online Users There are currently 1523 online users. » 9 Member(s) | 1508 Guest(s) Applebot, Baidu, Bing, Facebook, Google, Yandex, eggyk, Gregor, Slavik1980, TheSeer Latest Threads Deconstructing the VMS : ... Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: oshfdk 3 minutes ago » Replies: 23 » Views: 403 Aries Design: Truly Aries... Forum: Imagery Last Post: eggyk 1 hour ago » Replies: 45 » Views: 2,926 No text, but a visual cod... Forum: Theories & Solutions Last Post: ololololo 1 hour ago » Replies: 1,882 » Views: 1,309,261 I am not convinced by the... Forum: Provenance & history Last Post: Bernd 2 hours ago » Replies: 36 » Views: 1,082 What if it's a "Lossy Enc... Forum: Voynich Talk Last Post: Rafal 3 hours ago » Replies: 14 » Views: 306 Voynichese is a numeric c... Forum: Theories & Solutions Last Post: ololololo 5 hours ago » Replies: 202 » Views: 21,628 Voynich is encrypted ENOC... Forum: Theories & Solutions Last Post: Radim Dobeš 6 hours ago » Replies: 364 » Views: 53,183 The 'Chinese' Theory: Fo... Forum: Theories & Solutions Last Post: Linda Yesterday, 03:09 PM » Replies: 803 » Views: 213,955 Month names collection / ... Forum: Marginalia Last Post: Koen G Yesterday, 02:38 PM » Replies: 347 » Views: 81,258 New members: trouble regi... Forum: News Last Post: Strong Test Yesterday, 02:15 PM » Replies: 1 » Views: 168

The pragmatic nature of the script Posted by: davidjackson - 07-02-2017, 08:36 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text - Replies (24) I am always amazed by the pragmatism shown in the creation of the glyphs used in the VMS. Medieval code glyphs tended to be elaborate. It was almost as if, when deciding to sit down and create a cipher glyph, the average cryptologist would say "the more elaborate, the more over the top and impressive, the more secret it will be". OK, not always. But you can divide them into two types - the functional and the ornate. The first were designed to be used, the second designed to be shown. Ornate ones are the impractical ones devised to impress. Look at the Arabian secret writing tradition; or the John Dee's Enochian.   Another is the Alphabetum Kaldeorum, which was a simple 14th century cipher alphabet invented by Austrian king Rudolf IV:     Rudolf is reputed to have claimed that the alphabet was from India, but this appears to have been a misdirection. It's generally assumed that Rudolf invented it (or had someone invent it for him), as he was proud enough of the system to have it engraved on his epitaph. Some have argued that the letter shapes bear a resemblance to the theoretical cipher alphabet of Aethicus Ister, a work which we know about only at third or fourth hand, but which argued for the substitution of letters in order to secure the reading of the text. It's been suggested that the work was written by the 8th century Bishop of Salzburg, St. Virgil the geometer. St. Virgil was actually an Irish missionary who travelled the continent, and who had a major falling out with St. Boniface, who twice denounced him to the Pope for heresy. Other researchers have linked Aethicus Ister to other intellectuals of the period across the whole of Eastern Europe. If so, it's perfectly possible that a copy of his work was studied by someone in Rudolf's court who appropriated his ideas for his masters new code idea. Although we appear to have no actual diplomatic correspondence written in this cipher, we do have a manuscript from 1428 which, along with some other non-European alphabets, describes the Alphabetum, (it resides at the University of Munich with the not very exciting shelf name of UB München 4° Cod. ms. 810). These codes weren't designed to blend in, or to be easy to write. They were designed with the idea of secrecy in mind, but with no attempt at ease of use. Note the AK wouldn't be easy to write - we don't have any examples of it in use, but each letter would have to be individually written carefully to avoid confusion. M and Z would be very easy to confuse, as would I and K, etc. Here's a medieval code from a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (you can easily see the difference between the enciphered portion and the plain text) They are like this because they weren't designed to encode an entire book, only phrases or even words. The idea of encoding a whole book didn't appear until literacy was high enough to warrant this; indeed, in the middle ages the word "cipher" didn't even exist. The idea was always to hide the most important, key point. In all the medieval cipher manuscripts I know of, only key words or phrases are encoded. For more pragmatic and smoother approaches, we have to wait for the Renaissance. Such as the Spanish diplomatic codes from the 16th century, which substituted abbreviations for phrases in a code book: That's when codes actually start becoming useful, and people realise that it's a good idea to a) be easy to write and read and b) not stand out too much. But the Voynich glyphs are different. Obviously they stand out, but they were designed from the very beginning to be easy to write and read. There is another medieval code which comes to mind, namely the number ciphers used by monks across northern France and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: But the notae elegantissimae described above evolved through trial and error. They weren't trying to encode the numerical details (the code was used for counting, such as items in warehouses) but trying to substitute the clumsy Roman notation in use at the time. The code vanished as soon as Arabic numerals came along. So - why did the Voynich scribe decide upon a fluid script for his book? It seems a nonsensical question to us today, but it's a completely revolutionary idea for the late middle ages. Did the script evolve? (shout out to Koen!) Or was it designed from the ground up? I suppose we'll never know, but it's fun to speculate....   root pages Posted by: Davidsch - 07-02-2017, 05:25 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (2) What do you think is on the root pages? The root pages:  f100v_f101r1_f101r2 and following pages  (added: there are 18 pages : You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -till- f89v1 and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -till- f102v1) for example You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. a) the root/herbal drawings: I think I am seeing herbals in particular small plants all plant have roots which are brown colored  and the roots seem to get focus because the plants seems to be drawn casually especially on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. b) the containers: there are some "general" containers which are drawn casual, even without coloring but also there are very fancy containers some containers have labels c) identification: Are there roots that can be identified without doubt?  for example ginger, onion, carrot I see a possible ginger. But I am not familiar with the "common medieval" roots, perhaps there is a list of common roots as a starting point. Culpeper has such a list but he did not focus on the roots alone in his books. But perhaps I should double check that. d) relation to other pages: What is the relation of the root pages towards all the other pages? Are these pages stand-alone. I don't think there are stand-alone based on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. where root & plants are an the page. On the other hand, why aren't there references (visual or textual) to the containers in the other text ?   Am I sick for finding this funny? Posted by: stellar - 06-02-2017, 11:47 PM - Forum: Fiction, Comics, Films & Videos, Games & other Media - Replies (2) I feel his pain and the reason I have slowed down my posts is I believe I think what I found is correct however as some have pointed out there is no way to prove my work.  Now if I'm correct I fear we all will never find meaning of the text of the VMS.  Maybe language is not my game, I'm no dictator but has anyone here thrown a fit over the VMS or do you know of anyone who has been driven mad over the VMS?  This maybe sick humor, but we are adults and we can handle it lol.   [split] Bax' label readings and "labelese" Posted by: ReneZ - 05-02-2017, 06:46 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text - Replies (24) Edit KG: in another thread the discussion veered towards Bax's "Taurus" and the possible existence of two separate text systems in the VM in general. I split the thread so this can be discussed separately here. (05-02-2017, 05:12 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's based on [...], one of Stephen Bax's words [...] Not particularly aimed at David.... but I'd like to point out that this word doary for Taurus was already suggested many, many years before Stephen Bax's work.   I need a venture capitalist! Posted by: stellar - 05-02-2017, 06:31 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk - Replies (4) Freemasons or Illuminati or anyone all funding is welcome:  Torsten maybe right that the text is copied, but its not meaningless. I wish to hire a programmer or programmers to use my cipher and decode the entire Voynich Manuscript to Middle English as I feel I'm correct that I have found the secret to the VMS. I'm not a programmer so I need funding.  Does anyone here know of anyone who would wish to create a website with me in the attempt to uncover the meaning of the Voynich Manuscript?  I believe that at a certain point of the decoding process if I'm correct that at said 25% of the Voynich makes sense in Middle English this should be a proof to decode its entirety while on the project.  At the moment I have about .45% translated words which are mostly stars and 3 VMS paragraphs entirely in Middle English which make sense. I have an easy spreadsheet which converts my ciphered words to word numbers, but the most complex programming routine would be that the code converts Middle English sentences found to grammatical sense.  I also have an extensive list of Middle English words and a Middle English Dictionary. For instance this is part of f58r, lets say a string of numbers like this which I interpreted just using logic:  If I can do this with my brain it would be far easier for a computer to interpret the whole VMS, but labels maybe a challenge I'm not sure.  If you want to see the entire first paragraph of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. interpreted, search this site for (Lament from the Sea, New Method!) Its on 21. here is my email: tomeneil@gmail.com otalchal dal choldy okalys airaldy  60           34      69      77        75 eiaonao rao neorq etaoqs alkaorq lutee, so Londes Conseil dispence little, so London’s Counsel expenditures XXI shar ytar sheear cheoldy ykeol  20    38      26       72         60 hak qiak hccak nceorq qtceo sa hye kan, therof.  With  debt increased knowingly, nothing to them.  With  XXII cheal cheody chal chaiin ol oly sharam 33      57     30   52    20 37    43 ncao ncerq nao nallm eo eoq hakav the delices, make hyne deef gye, but the pleasures, make servants deaf governor, but XXIII  okair chckaiin ytchaly dal chal ykal  49        86          73      34    30   53   etalk nntallm qinaoq rao nao qtao talke benynge, lutt bifel.  Oo canot conversation good, little happened.  One cannot XXIV okalal oly chal dy r chal qopaiim cholaly  57         37   30 35 18  30    81          67 etaoao eoq nao rq r nao wefallv neoaoq boote gye! make ches em oo graunt Lionel remedy governor!  Make choice brother, one law Lionel   XXVI dy shedy typchey ar air ytashy  35  46! NOT DONE, TWO MORE PARAGRAPHS! rq hcrq iqfncq ak alk qiahq Ches Leon. Choose Leon.   For that special someone Posted by: VViews - 05-02-2017, 06:26 PM - Forum: Fiction, Comics, Films & Videos, Games & other Media - Replies (5) Not trying to plug a product here! Just stumbled upon it and thought it was cute, and the inside made me laugh: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.   Does the VMs show the solar eclipse of April 15, 1409? Posted by: Helmut Winkler - 05-02-2017, 10:41 AM - Forum: Astrology & Astronomy - Replies (6) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. AND You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.   Great Vid for Voynich Newbs lol Posted by: stellar - 04-02-2017, 11:08 PM - Forum: Fiction, Comics, Films & Videos, Games & other Media - Replies (3) I like this video, how do you feel about it?   [split] Could the manuscript be a copy of older documents? Posted by: Koen G - 04-02-2017, 12:22 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (20) Edit: this was originally a reply to David's medieval nymph thread. Since it got into another direction quite fast I split it. Hi David I'm dealing with a rather dynamic two-and-a-half year old at the moment so I can't answer as elaborately as I should, but I'll give some initial comments already. One thing I still don't understand is why people discard the possibility that the manuscript's imagery was copied from an older tradition instead of a 15th century creation. This is not a hypothetical scenario, it happened a lot. I will again refer to the various traditions of astronomical manuscripts, where we see 15th century copies of 9th-10th century manuscripts. These, in turn, were relatively accurate copies of Greco-Roman imagery. So once again, "ancient sources" is a valid possibility that should be considered as much as "medieval creation" and renaissance.  What makes the Voynich different then? Well first of all, the fact that the in-between material has been lost, probably because the tradition was not mainstream in the first place. This means that the best parallels are found in the ancient artefacts which lie at the basis of the now lost tradition. And secondly, the fact that the usual medieval adaptations have often not been applied. When medieval scribes copied older sources, they would often put contemporary clothes on the figures. Clothing is a huge cultural marker, so adapting it to a "modern" equivalent will make it easier to understand for your audience. This is why it's not unusual to see Hercules as an armored knight sometimes, or rulers as medieval kings. This has happened in the VM, but only in a minority of the figures. Unfortunately, this solution is more complex than assuming a 15th century original creation. If the manuscript's imagery goes back to Greco-Roman originals (most likely first centuries CE, in my opinion), then which alterations were made in between? How many in-between copies have there been, and by which cultures? Were all sections altered equally? Did all sections originate in the same setting? When were the sections first gathered? Which alterations were still made in the 15th century copy that is left now? When was the text made the way it is now and why? Anyway, if you can explain to me why even intelligent people like you discard the possibility that the VM might be a fruit of a tree with rather deep roots, I might learn something Other points: I agree that the nymphs are vessels, not individuals. It is almost as if the manuscript uses the nude human form as a default carrier of concepts, without that human body itself having much significance. But isn't the usual medieval approach that such concepts are still tied to an individual saint or other figure? Also, they are usually clothed. We must look for situations where the nude human form is a "blank" carrier of meaning, like mannequins. The pose, position and any attributes are much more important than the actual person. I'd say that the word "person" doesn't even apply to Voynich nymphs. A while ago, when I asked for parallels in medieval art for the nymphs' proportions, I was surprised to get many suggestions from Romance regions, often some centuries older than the VM. This agrees with some of your observations. This might shed some light on the earlier medieval stages of the transmission of the material. The scarcity of christian thought and symbolism in the manuscript and the preference for nude figures is not something I find hard to explain . But it is indeed necessary to address this in any kind of analysis of the figures. The way the faces are drawn is something I've seen in other manuscripts as well. This should still be studied, it might again teach us something about transmission. But I'm afraid this way of drawing faces was relatively common - I can't say without several days of looking at faces in manuscripts first    Medieval nymph tendencies Posted by: davidjackson - 04-02-2017, 09:51 AM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (3) One of the irritations of this manuscript is that we can't pin down a specific era or artistic tendency. In some ways it seems to be medieval; in others, Renaissance. Frankly, I would suggest that this is because it was created on the edge of two worlds, it is a book created in a Renaissance mindset but with medieval influences. I've been looking at marginal medieval sources that could have inspired the artistic abilities of the scribe. I've mentioned before the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. from the time of Alfonso X, which shares certain similarities with the Voynich nymphs. Quote:Note the simple strong penmark for the face which does not show the closest cheek (admittedly many of the nymphs have no chin, but bear in the mind the small size of the image - larger ones often do), the sharp nose with eye and strong eyebrows. The same method is used to draw the face of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in the VM. Note also the simple hands without thumbs and long joined fingers. The inclined head which nonetheless displays the full face to the viewer in a somewhat distorted manner (there is no attempt at perspective here). Here's a miniature of Theresa of Portugal (1080-1130) in the same tradition: (Taken from the Gothic codex of the monastery of Toxosoutos) But this tendency of round faces with staring eyes carried over in Spanish religious icongraphy of the era. Here's a couple of photos of 14th century wooden carvings that I took in a Church museum in Cuenca recently (excuse bad photography, I wasn't supposed to be taking photos and the room was in darkness)         These images aren't here to be looked at. They are blank, staring, almost formless human beings. Because their intention is to remind us of our duty to God. Look how the second image has a massive hand which comes out at you, along with the missing hand. Originally the carving's focal point would have been what was held there, not the body itself which is simply a vehicle for the objects of devotion. We see more Iberian influences in the book - the much quoted Alfonso X zodiac influences, for example. I am not suggesting an Iberian provenance for the book here, but rather calling attention to the artistic tradition. The scribe may have studied in Spain, which at the time of the early 15th century was a major calling port for itinerant scribes; he may have been otherwise exposed to the influences. It's part of the Romanic medieval tendency. The human body is drawn to vague outlines, because the important thing is the symbology that surrounds the body - the religious iconography. Note the strong blue skies that call our attention to God, along with the devotion in the objects being held aloft, as well as the thrones temporal upon which the figures sit or stand. The Romanic medieval artistic influence is across Europe, but artistic interpretation varies from region to region. The Iberian tradition, especially in the northern states (along the Camino de Santiago pilgrimage routes) were much simpler than their French or Catalan cousins, who seem to have liked to add a lot of fruit salad to their pictures (ornate backgrounds and the like). We see this medieval lack of interest in the Voynich human figures that corresponds to medieval tradition, rather than the anthropocentric interests of the Renaissance. There is no attempt at realism other than the generic outlines of a body - the figures are much more in the tradition of the medieval peasant grotesque than any attempt to depict actual humans. There is no attempt at perspective in most if not all human figures - they are either shown face on or on one side. When shown inside a setting such as a river or a building, the perspective is flat on the page. The artist clearly has no idea of how to produce any attempt at a 3d depiction. It has been said that the images look innocent, as if drawn by a child - I suggest that they are simply a product of the artistic influences surrounding the scribe. When we see a nymph holding an object aloft, or interacting, we are clearly in this medieval tradition - our attention is being called to the action displayed or symbology, rather than to the person. Is the symbology Christian? It doesn't appear to be, which is why we can't pinpoint the artistic tendency. We're seeing the medieval influence but it's a vehicle for some other symbology that doesn't geld with what we know it should be. Which is why it's so perplexing. The ideas in the book seem to be Renaissance. But the mindset is still medieval. It's as if the scribe were classically trained, but exploring new, exciting and perhaps taboo ideas. First Previous Next Last