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• Helical structure of rosettes page

• Helical structure of rosettes page

  Ruby Novacna > 22-08-2017, 12:06 PM

  Hello !
  
  For several days I have been looking for proposals to explain the helical structure of the rosette page. Do you have any references?

• RE: Helical structure of rosettes page

  MarcoP > 22-08-2017, 01:11 PM

  (22-08-2017, 12:06 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hello !
  
  For several days I have been looking for proposals to explain the helical structure of the rosette page. Do you have any references?

  
  Hi Ruby,
  I see it as some kind of cliff, vaguely similar to this Dante illustraton (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. p.1).

• RE: Helical structure of rosettes page

  juergenw > 22-08-2017, 08:03 PM

  I think this could be the display of a (special) wind as described by Aristotle in Meteorologica.
  
  Based on the exhalations (dry and wet) a helical wind is described (in the Rosette folio the blue/white waves - I discuss winds and meteorological effects in the Rosette folio in more detail in a different thread You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
  
  I attach some extract of a geophysical paper (2003) on that special wind - let me know if you need more details of the full paper.
   
  This special type of wind (and images) can be also searched for as 'Australian morning glory wind' - look for the images at the Google search or here at wiki page (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)

• RE: Helical structure of rosettes page

  -JKP- > 23-08-2017, 02:53 AM

  I can't find them easily, and I'm very busy right now, but I've seen some formations like that on castle hills. I'm fairly sure I kept copies (this was quite a few years ago, so I'm not certain). If I can locate them, I'll upload them.
  
  
  Something you should see, however, something everyone should see whether it's related to VMS or not is this:
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  
  These do not typically layer themselves on top of each other, as in the VMS, but may still be of interest:
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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• RE: Helical structure of rosettes page

  Koen G > 23-08-2017, 09:09 AM

  JKP: I'd also think they are sand dunes because the curved lines are so smooth. Sand dunes are formed by the wind and thus indicate the direction of the predominant wind in the area. The alignment of these dunes on the map might be important, since winds are a crucial element in the construction of medieval maps and charts and the dunes are placed along a connecting line.
  
  
  
  
     

• RE: Helical structure of rosettes page

  -JKP- > 23-08-2017, 09:22 PM

  Koen's point about how the dunes are formed by wind is a good one.
  
  Different materials have different ways of eroding or shaping themselves depending on whether they are acted upon by wind, water, gritty materials, or time. Not every kind of material (or composite) can shape itself into specific curves or layers like those in the VMS. There are characteristic shapes and patterns that help geologists identify and date the various kinds of materials and layers.
  
  
  The ones that form into curved peaks or helical shapes tend to be softer materials like sand and sandstone (as illustrated by the links above). Even more specific shapes are dependent on whether it's a build-up or break-down process.

• RE: Helical structure of rosettes page

  Ruby Novacna > 24-08-2017, 01:42 AM

  I thought it was an artificial or semi-artificial seawall.

• RE: Helical structure of rosettes page

  -JKP- > 24-08-2017, 02:15 AM

  (24-08-2017, 01:42 AM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I thought it was an artificial or semi-artificial seawall.

  
  
  Terracing happened frequently in medieval times (building stone jetties was common, also). Terracing so that grape vines or rice could grow on slopes was a common practice.
  
  Terracing also happened on paths. Everything was by foot (whether animal or human). Many paths weren't wide enough for a cart. Paths that were used frequently were even worn down through stone.
  
  Terracing could create layers or loops, depending on whether the object was  to flatten steep areas (for farming) or to climb them.
  
  
  Because the VMS has a limited palette, it's hard to tell where water ends and blue is used to mean other things. The bottom-left rosette looks like it might be rivers or rivulets, the top-right one may have waves, but blue might mean something else in the three center rosettes (from top to bottom), so it's difficult to know whether the blue that is at the base of the dune-like shapes is meant to represent water or some other texture (like stone).
  
  In the center rosette, blue is used on a cloud band, which variously represents air or sky or divinity or the division between us and stars or imagined sky dwellers or spirits. Based on how they used and combined cloud bands with other things, it doesn't appear as though they expressly associated cloud bands with water (condensation—as in real clouds) as much as with something more like air or spirit or a "force-field" or invisible fence.
  
  The blue semi-circular bumps under the dune-like shapes look very regular, as though they were stacked like building stones, so I would be hesitant to assume they were water, even if there's water by the rosette to the right of them. So it may be natural or artificial terraces (they were common), but not necessarily above water, unless.... each rosette is perhaps a different "snapshot" or viewpoint of the same place and the blue is symbolic of water in an abstract way. I suppose that might be possible. But it's also possible that each rosette represents something fairly distant from the others. If they are real topological features, and not metaphysical ones, there might be miles between them.
  
  I would be cautious about assuming blue is water unless the shapes of the lines themselves add support.
  
  
  So, maybe not a sea wall, but quite possibly an artificial (or semi-artificial) wall.
  
  I've been assuming, at least for the time being, that they are escarpments carved or created out of some softer material... dirt, sand, sandstone, which might be shaped that way due to wind or erosion. The part under the dune-shapes looks more artificial to me than the dune-shapes themselves.

• RE: Helical structure of rosettes page

  MarcoP > 06-08-2022, 01:46 PM

  Hi Ruby, in another thread you asked:
  
  

  (05-08-2022, 07:08 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Marco, have you in your research come across a helical structure, similar to the one on the rosette page?

  
  As I previously said, I don't see this detail as helical, nor I see it as architectural. 
  
  These are two rough sketches of my interpretation of that image (seen from the left and from the right). I see it as an attempt at illustrating both sides of a wall. On the right, two buildings are leaning against the wall. On the left, there is something that looks like a hill made of several steps, maybe some kind of terracing, as JKP said: this structure also appears to lean against the wall. A crenellated tower rises above the wall.
  
     
  
  In the case of this detail, it seems clear that the perspective is inaccurate: this is one of those parts of the diagram for which it seems impossible to come to a reliable interpretation. I am aware that my reading might be totally wrong.
  
  As a possible parallel for my interpretation (and possibly my inspiration for it), I attach a detail from a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. The mountain of purgatory is similar to how I read the structure on the left of the wall (but this structure is cut in two by the wall, so that its right half is missing).
  
     

• RE: Helical structure of rosettes page

  Ruby Novacna > 06-08-2022, 05:04 PM

  (06-08-2022, 01:46 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't see this detail as helical, nor I see it as architectural

  Thank you for your answer, Marco!
  If I understand correctly you have not seen anything similar in the illustrations of the real cities, either helical or simply terraced. 
  Pity, it might help us to understand the closest label.
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