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| Interconnection Q13a and ROS. |
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Posted by: Wladimir D - 25-04-2019, 01:15 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (3)
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Blog in Russian https: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Some excerpts from it.
I am convinced that at least part of the Voynich Manuscript is a copy from another document. Moreover, it was written in the same symbols of VMS.
Refer to page 80r. Here the text of several lines is written in steps, using lighter ink, which is signed and the labels next to the nymphs. How can the residual length of the line (dark ink) be foreseen in order to write the correct word in advance on the next line without having the original in front of my eyes?
There are some more examples of the transfer from the original along with the drawing of parts of the text that are written on the subject with lighter inks than the rest of the text.
If you repeat my actions and make a layout of all bifolios using a printer, then you will see that the Q13a theme is placed on 8 pages and occupies a full 2 bifolios. And bifolio f78v-f81r has a relationship between the pages and should not be shared by other pages.
The Q13 does not have at least one bifolio, whose pages can also belong to Q13a. Where there should be a missing bifolio is shown.
БИФОЛИО НЕТ 2.JPG (Size: 11.05 KB / Downloads: 133)
Imagine that the ROS clamshell has fallen into disrepair (or you just need to make a copy of it), but you only have the bifolio format available. You will be forced to copy large format parts and make special notes so that you can understand the logical chain of following pages (this role in particular is played by the drain hole on 78r).
The general structure of ROS + Q13a will be as follows.
Q13-2.2.JPG (Size: 352.13 KB / Downloads: 121)
Two rivers (two watersheds), marked on ROS by two canopies in rosettes (1.2) and (2.1), are connected together in a central rosette, which corresponds to a reservoir (fountain, water tower).
Ingredients of cans (towers) are added to the water coming out of the reservoir (possibly using aqueducts You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ), for this they are painted on the central rosette.
This process is schematically depicted on page 78r. Barrels (bags) are steamed with water from different rivers (red stream and light green). Red color inside the barrel indicates hot water. Swimming in the pool can be done with three types of herbal supplements. For this, two cranes must be provided.
There is a slight “weakness” in the arrangement of the Q13a drawings in 3x3 format. This is the absence of an explicit diagonal connection (dark green line) between 75r and 81v. What I want to answer:
1 / it is unknown what is behind the back of the right ladies. Perhaps there are nozzles removed when cutting sheets, as on both 81v and 78v.
2 / let me remind you that the copying took place, and the artist had the opportunity to improvise (or not understanding the interrelation, he omitted some of the moments captured on the original).
3 / On the other hand, the artist should have tried to copy the drawings from a large format to a bifolio, while respecting the logical relationship.
Consider the following page copying order (red numbers from 1 to 8).
ПОРЯДОК КОПИРОВАНИЯ 2.JPG (Size: 15.91 KB / Downloads: 128)
Pages 84r and 84v are interrelated and are on the same sheet. Page 75r is the last (4) on the first bifolio, and the associated page 81v is the first (5) (which is correct) on the next bifolio.
In this case, pages 78r and 75v remain unbound. But it is for these purposes that an additional hole is drawn at the bottom of the 78r as a link tag.
My conclusion.
Q13a is part of the detailed instructions for the ROS scheme.
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| Voynich text in other characters |
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Posted by: Mark Knowles - 18-04-2019, 01:00 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (30)
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One suggestion I would make if it hasn't already been made is to try and generate Voynichese like text with a different invented alphabet, i.e. set of symbols, as I think using the Voynich alphabet can be confusing as on the one hand you are trying to produce text is structured like the Voynich text, but is not exactly identical to Voynich text in its structure. This is clearly not an attempt to directly decipher the Voynich, but rather to simulate it.
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| Number of syllables distribution |
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Posted by: Koen G - 14-04-2019, 02:49 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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Quick question, has anyone ever attempted to count the number of "syllables" in Voynichese "words" and compare them to those in other languages?
For example, 10% one syllable, 30% two syllable etc.
I know we don't know for certain whether there are vowels and syllables like there would be in Latin. But various people have identified glyphs that are likely to be vowels. So if you build on that assumption, what would the result be?
(I vaguely remember that something like this has been discussed, but since we talk a lot about syllables the search function resulted in an overload).
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| Labelese Analysis |
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Posted by: Mark Knowles - 14-04-2019, 02:37 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (17)
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As far as I understand limited analysis has been conducted on the subset of Voynichese termed by some as labelese.
It would be nice to rerun many of the statistical or other analyses of the text just for labelese, so as to see where there are similarities and differences between labelese and non-labelese text. In addition I am interested in the study of labelese in its own right as I contest this ought to be Voynichese in its simplest form and so the most amenable to efforts to decipher it.
However I wonder how easy it is to distinguish between labels and non-labels in whichever file the complete text in stored. Presumably single word labels could be viewed as sentences or paragraphs with only one word in them. Then I don't know if it is easy to get hold of the source code for the various tests the seem as possibly being relevant and modifying the code to run just for the labelese subset; reproducing all the code could prove to be quite a hassle, so it would be nice if I can avoid that. I don't doubt this is more difficult to do than my description, but at some stage, when I have the time, I would like execute as many relevant tests as possible on labelese.(It may at times be unclear as to what is sentence text and what constitute single word labels).
I have not worked yet with the Voynich text file (s) or database or however else the text is stored and am pretty ignorant on EVA etc. However I am perfectly happy working with code, databases etc. so I am not daunted by that.
Any opinions on how easy/hard it will be to do this given the way data is stored and existing code made available, would be worth knowing.
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| Resolving whether 86v is a map or not |
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Posted by: Mark Knowles - 13-04-2019, 01:59 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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It should be noted, as some will know, that I have devoted a significant of time to this subject.
However rather than getting the opinions of layman on the subject I have started the process of getting as much relevant expert opinion of the subject. I have been in touch with experts on medieval maps and I plan to get in touch with as many relevant experts as I can find, as I am keen to get this question as close to being settled as I can.
Now there are other suggestions as to what this page represents. As far as I am aware these are the 4 other suggestions:
1) Some kind of cosmological drawing i.e. of the planets
2) Some kind of drawing relating to the 4 elements
3) Some kind of architectural plans
4) A combination of different possibilities i.e. map and/or 1, 2, 3 above
It seems to me to explore the full analysis of these possibilities one should really consult experts on medieval cosmological drawings, elemental drawings, and architectural plans. They can give us some idea if the page likely represents something in their field of expertise.
This is not a peripheral question, but I think a vital question as if it is indeed a map as I others believe, it has the potential to impart valuable geographic insights into the origin of the Voynich, especially if it is a regional itinerary map as I have argued.
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| Experimental replica of VMS properties with a given corpus |
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Posted by: bi3mw - 11-04-2019, 06:14 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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For some time I have been dealing with a fundamental question. Have you ever tried to use a ( medieval ) corpus to generate text that has similar characteristics to the VMS using cryptographic methods? The horse is saddled here, so to speak, from the other side. I mean no random text, but text that can be decrypted again (meaningful). For example, is it possible to replicate the steep curve of word lengths ? Are immediate,multiple word repetitions possible ?
It is therefore a matter of experimentally replicating the known properties of the VMS with a given corpus ( modeling ). Does that make sense in your opinion or is that too experimental ?
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| Choice of glyphs |
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Posted by: Koen G - 07-04-2019, 01:33 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (56)
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We know almost for sure that the Voynichese glyph set was purposefully assembled. By which I mean, it did not organically evolve over centuries. The fact that we have this particular collection of glyphs is likely the result of someone's (or a group's) conscious choice.
We don't know if the glyph set was first constructed for the VM, and if more documents using it have existed. We also don't know if there are earlier or other versions elsewhere. But this matters little, we have what we have.
So I've been thinking for a while... if we can assume that these glyphs were chosen, then what was the rationale behind their inclusion? It's quite a peculiar set.
- a - letter a --> vowel
- o - letter o or zero --> vowel or number
- l - four --> number
- q - four or five or q? --> number or consonant
- d - d or s or eight --> number or consonant
- y - abbreviation or nine --> abbreviation or number
- s - abbreviation
- m - abbreviation
- g - abbreviation
- n - abbreviation
- ch - ligature
- sh - ligature
- r - consonant (or abbreviation?)
- e - c? or minim? what is this?
- i - letter i? or minim?
- t - abbreviation (?)
- k - abbreviation (?)
- z - abbreviation (?)
This list is made off the top of my head from what I remember, it's incomplete and I hope it can be fleshed out further and corrected. Still, it's a strange picture already.
We have:- 5 glyphs that can be numbers
- About 10 glyphs in the ligature/abbreviation category
- Very few glyphs that are exclusively vowel or consonant. EVA-a is an exception. I'm not sure what to do with EVA-i and -e. EVA-r might be a pure consonant?
What does this tell us? It appears that the glyph set is mostly composed of numbers and scribal conventions. Those few that are found in the alphabet often double as a number or abbreviation. So the glyph set simultaneously:
- Avoids unambiguous characters from the alphabet.
- Uses characters familiar to the Latin scribe.
The final point might also be of interest. The selection of known symbols likely meant that the writing system could be learned easily.
But why construct a glyph set that relies so heavily on numbers and abbreviation symbols?
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