+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Imagery (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-43.html)
+--- Thread: The Rosette folio and Aristotle's Meteorologica (/thread-1245.html)
Pages:
1
2
The Rosette folio and Aristotle's Meteorologica - juergenw - 05-12-2016
Nick Pelling introduced on his blog the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. with the aim of matching blocks of text sources across several pages of the Voynich manuscript in an attempt to create a new angle for voynich analysis.
I tried to use a special use case of his methodology in order to match a single text source to a single folio analysing the network of imagery within. I attach the summary of my findings in essay format You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .
As the title of the thread and essay already indicates, I suggest strong links of the Rosette folio’s micro-imagery (part of it, not all) to Aristotle’s Meteorologica (as indicated previously You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. on Davidsch's thread). For those not fancying the full story, I attach one figure with two findings: Firewinds and whirlwinds and their proximity in text (webster translation of Meteorologica, Bekker pagination fro the greek version in the figure) and image details, respectively.
Other findings e.g. relate to earthquakes. The discussion then introduces some more suggestions (e.g. the Aristotelian life cycle in the context of the Meteorologica). By no means is that work finished, but if anyone wants to comment on it, I would be grateful for any feedback.
RE: The Rosette folio and Aristotle's Meteorologica - Davidsch - 06-12-2016
Very good thinking Juergen and it looks you've put a lot of time in this, I still have to read it.
It's not clear to me what your aim of the paper is and why are you publishing it so quickly.
But perhaps the paper has the function of discussion piece?
Could you shed some light on that?
It really is a pitty there is so little feedback on idea's that are not only based on pictures or endless repeating threads.
Roughly there are on the forum two postings:
1) hey here is a picture, here is another one. great. start the line again.
2) I think that this and that. You say nothing new I already know that because. Start the line again.
So, I really like postings like this.
The quality of the paper would be much better and with more thorough references if you would work on such a thing together.
Matching anything of Aristotle with another written source is not something you can do in a day, or in some weeks.
Only since last month I've found out that there are parts in the VMS that have a strong "medieval Aristotle sauce".
The matter of Aristotle is so vast that I am now trying to read what other scientists in medieval times wrote on the subject.
That alone is a huge amount of reading. Understanding and applying Aristotle's work onto the Voynich manuscript (VMS) is an idea many people probably have had.
And it is, in essence a very good idea. But you need to change those ideas into medieval thoughts first, then look through the eyes of that person and only after that you can look to the Voynich with the correct perspective. I was planning to find a summary on all Aristotle works and then work into the 1200-1300 and 1400's but that's probably too much. We'll see.
You are also throwing the Block Paradigm into it? Perhaps that sounds as a bridge too far. But like I said, I still have to read it.
RE: The Rosette folio and Aristotle's Meteorologica - juergenw - 06-12-2016
(06-12-2016, 01:21 AM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Very good thinking Juergen and it looks you've put a lot of time in this, I still have to read it.
It's not clear to me what your aim of the paper is and why are you publishing it so quickly.
But perhaps the paper has the function of discussion piece?
Could you shed some light on that?
... (shortened for brevity)
The quality of the paper would be much better and with more thorough references if you would work on such a thing together.
Matching anything of Aristotle with another written source is not something you can do in a day, or in some weeks.
Only since last month I've found out that there are parts in the VMS that have a strong "medieval Aristotle sauce".
The matter of Aristotle is so vast that I am now trying to read what other scientists in medieval times wrote on the subject.
That alone is a huge amount of reading. Understanding and applying Aristotle's work onto the Voynich manuscript (VMS) is an idea many people probably have had.
And it is, in essence a very good idea. But you need to change those ideas into medieval thoughts first, then look through the eyes of that person and only after that you can look to the Voynich with the correct perspective. I was planning to find a summary on all Aristotle works and then work into the 1200-1300 and 1400's but that's probably too much. We'll see.
You are also throwing the Block Paradigm into it? Perhaps that sounds as a bridge too far. But like I said, I still have to read it.
Hi Davidsch
thanks for your comments and feedback. You are correct, it took some considerable time and effort. Most/All of us here will have busy lives so the amount of time spent on favourite pastimes may be limited and, admittedly, reading through a number of sources is very time consuming: Lucretius -De rerum natura; other pre-socratic early thinkers in that area on Elements, Thomas Aquinas, etc all those discussed in the context of the method and how I approached it. Once you've read the essay, you will see some of your comments (hopefully) answered. Available time was one issue not to go into deep detail with other than Aristotle's Meteorologica, that doesn't mean that they are not mentioned or quoted (NB: I am not sure I understand your sentence correctly on missing references or their quality in the paper when you state twice that you have to read it yet).
Why now? Good question. I think I reached a state where I wanted to put it up for discussion and seek or hope for other people's feedback and thinking. I could have spent another two years refining (and mapping, cross-referencing, etc) - but what if I made a stupid mistake to start with? One may say that my assumption (to start with) or conclusions are wrong for x,y or z reasons, and I rather hear them now than in two years' time. But I am confident that the bulk of what I present is enough to be read and judged accordingly. I like spending time on these things, but I don't want to waste time either.
I'd be grateful to hear more of your feedback. Also happy to discuss further steps (if any) that you/others think would be a way to spend more time and effort with and if it is worthwhile pursuing. I had in mind a hyper-linked map of the text references and more, but still more ground work needs to be done... The essay in its current form focusses only on some parts, I had more 'matches' (which I took out for the downloadable version for the reason of brevity): metals, (more) exhalations, reference to the 'primary mover' (i.e. the elevated star layer in the centre of the folio), thunder/hurricane... but more time consuming work is necessary to tighten things up. Coming back to the point, have I made a mistake to start with and not wasting time and effort... so, all up for discussion :-)
I see your point that you make about the medieval thought - though I think that it is critical point because there may not have been a single trail of thought and, subsequently, I approached it more from the thinking of 'what is the original source'. I quote two Renaissance meteorological works and Thomas Aquinas, which I believe would be good places to start with from an angle that you describe, but I can't see a common thought as a result of that. In the three mentioned sources, all (one way or the other) come back to quoting (or applying) Aristotle's line of thought on Meteorologica in different ways.
Had I had more time I would have analysed the Greek version the Latin/Arabic tradition of the Meteorologica manuscript. The tradition is well documented and the differences between these two strands are important, which may reflect on the underlying source that has been used in the Rosette folio's case (were it to be true that is).
RE: The Rosette folio and Aristotle's Meteorologica - Davidsch - 12-12-2016
I've read you paper quite rapidly and it was a nice read.
What's surprising is the swift confrontation with the 'spikes with the flags' represent fire.
Where is the basis for that? I would love to see some research on fire because the VMS rather lacks fire.
It could also be salt. The salt of the sea for example.
like discussed on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
and final answer on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Secondly the grouping of the pipes, needs more attention. What could the "grouping" mean and are there other items grouped in the ms?
What i see is 5 small pipes + 1 heigh pipe. On the left top are 5 high pipes.
Why it is important to refer to the Block paradigm throughout is not clear to me.
Cappadocia? What is interesting is karst, which appears in my research as well.
But the Turkish place has a lesser connection then similar European places.
Let's focus on Greece.
The Greek word for whirlwind seems to be ανεμοστρόβιλος or στρόβιλος.
I would love to have the original text from 5) so i can transliterate/ try to read it.
--- my addition ---
From the same book translation. starting at
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
CH II
The winds
The winds are called Euri. From the north Boreael those from the setting sun Zephyri;those from the south Noti. etc. see the image and names. Then a description follows. Lightning, rainbow variations, halo, comets etc.
...as the earth contains many sources of water, so it also contains many sources of wind and fire. Of these some are subterranean and invisible, but many have vents and spiracles, as Lipare, Etna and the volcanoes of the Aeolian islands.
..earthquakes..winds caused by earthquakes. ...Chasms form in it (in the sea) and its waters often retire or the waves rush in;this is sometimes followed by a recoil and sometimes there is merely a forward surge of water, as is said to have occurred at Helice and Bura.
Note: see the map onYou are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Helike (Greek: Ἑλίκη ) was an ancient Greek city that was submerged by a tsunami in the winter of 373 BC.
Are the pipes/vents that are coming from all 4 corner rosettes, aiming at the middle rosette, wind vents or earthly manifestations?
CH III
The senses, de sensu
..we must next consider what account we are to give of any one of them...colour..sound...odour..or savour..and touch.
...p442/311...savours and colours, it will be observed contain respectively about the same number of species. For there are seven species of each, if, as is reasonable, we regard Dun (or grey) in black or yellow in white. If we merged both we should have only six.: if we allowed both to stand out, eight...the seven colours are thus crimson, violet, green blue, black, white with either yellow or Dun.
Added another thought.
Aristotle is talking a lot about ratios. Especially in the footnotes. It is clear that the pipes also have a ratio in the group 1/5 but also 5 biggies/1 middle rosette.
RE: The Rosette folio and Aristotle's Meteorologica - juergenw - 12-12-2016
(12-12-2016, 08:52 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I've read you paper quite rapidly and it was a nice read.
Thanks David for your response. Did you find it nice (only) or also convincing?
not much time , so a quick reply only:
yellow as indicator of fire, or salt?
I made the suggestion in 2014 on fire (the element) being part of the Rosette folio - have a look at the previous paper. Inflaming the air I think is a good comparison. Not just the colour but also the form (to me) looks like a flame.
Salt, as you mention, is interesting, because there is yellow in the bottom left sphere in the Rosette folio. THis bottom right sphere I believe to represent book 4 of Meteorologica (I took that out for brevity in the essay) with the generation of metals and salts subterraneously located...Yellow for sulfur anyone?
5+1 (number of pipes): Again, as I said in the essay at that stage where I mentioned it, I omitted it for brevity. One of the six phenomena (Thunder, lightning, hurricane, thunderbolt, whirlwind and firewind) is dominant. Will provide the full quote later.
Block paradigm: As I tried to explain, I think I used this method in a special use case, maybe I should have labelled it differently (e.g. network paradigm?) I split the imagery into micro images and matched these to text (a single one in this case) and tried to analyse if I can see any network like structures deducible from the image and text relationship.
Cappadocia was introduced by Diane (as the essay cites properly and states correctly). I also believe, that if rock formations are the appropriate ID, then others (I mentioned the Italian dolomites in the essay) could be possible too.
Original Greek text source: Not sure what you mean by original: The screenshot is based on the ebook version of (5). Or do you mean the original by Aristotle? That, I believe is not available.
Will have a proper look at your other material/comments later in the week. I suggested back then a comparison between classical Elements versus physical Elements ("matter" - essay You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). My refinement now consequently refers to these as 'exhalations' (dry and wet and the mixtures of these, ascending towards the kapnosphere, where there is a big difference between wet/dry).
NB: What do you make of the turbo/whirlwind comparison with R. Fludd (Cosmic Meteorology) with the Rosette text spiral?
RE: The Rosette folio and Aristotle's Meteorologica - Davidsch - 13-12-2016
>>Thanks David for your response. Did you find it nice (only) or also convincing?
I am convinced of your potential. ;-)
>> have a look at the previous paper
Where or which one?
>>Original Greek text source
Yes, the exact transliteration from the original text as original as possible. I want to see how it is formulated.
But if you have an image that is difficult, ok.
>>Classical Elements versus physical Elements ("matter" - essay You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
I will read that paper as well. But I am not a big fan of the basic elements as explanation because they are too loose, too general and will not lead to more or new information towards the text directly, because almost every author in medieval times wrote about the basic elements.
I am walking through specific authors in a specific area of research and trying to discover everything about them and their surroundings. Gradually you get a feeling for the period, knowledge and general essence of the time, circumstances and interests. It leads nowhere but it is a lot of fun. Most scholars are also very keen on sharing information and that is also satisfying.
>>NB: What do you make of the turbo/whirlwind comparison with R. Fludd (Cosmic Meteorology) with the Rosette text spiral?
Hm. Between 1617 and 1621 the English physician and polymath Robert Fludd published his masterwork Utriusque Cosmi, a book split into two volumes and packed with over 60 intricate engravings. A very nice blog You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You must like the sentence "the whirlwind turneth it self in a round compass". and the images, for example of Robert Plot of a tornado.
and 12 Ansichten von atmosphärischen Phänomenen (1878) by Josef Gabriel Frey: SONEN & MOND REGENBOGEN --> see other thread with discussion of the rainbow in the VMS. (sun & moon rainbow) --> You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Looking forward to share more information.
RE: The Rosette folio and Aristotle's Meteorologica - VViews - 13-12-2016
(06-12-2016, 01:21 AM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But you need to change those ideas into medieval thoughts first, then look through the eyes of that person and only after that you can look to the Voynich with the correct perspective. I was planning to find a summary on all Aristotle works and then work into the 1200-1300 and 1400's but that's probably too much.
I completely agree with that first sentence there: I think that when we consider ancient sources in the Voynich, the first point of comparison should be medieval versions, interpretations, commentary and exegeses of those sources, rather than the original ancient source material itself.
Also, if you put together such a summary of the Aristotle-centric material that was produced in the period you suggest, I would be very interested to see that list, and I think it would be a great addition to the Library.
RE: The Rosette folio and Aristotle's Meteorologica - Davidsch - 13-12-2016
Quote:..
Also, if you put together such a summary of the Aristotle-centric material that was produced in the period you suggest, I would be very interested to see that list, and I think it would be a great addition to the Library.
Ha, during my time in study, I used to make excerpts of all courses and printed them on my matrix printer, because copying was much more expensive than that.
Then I sold them below the copy-price to all fellow students during break and earned some money.
Today, about 25-30 years later, unfortunately presently, I do not seek attention nor fortune, so chances are very slim I will place such on-line.
Nevertheless there are some good books, the book already referenced seems like a big book 480 pages, but in an hour or two you can read it all.
RE: The Rosette folio and Aristotle's Meteorologica - VViews - 13-12-2016
(13-12-2016, 05:11 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Nevertheless there are some good books, the book already referenced seems like a big book 480 pages, but in an hour or two you can read it all.
Which one do you mean? The 480 page document you link to is a 1908 translation of Aristotle's works, not a medieval version. The other two books you reference are not medieval either.
Perhaps it is a misunderstanding?
You said we should try to understand medieval viewpoints, so I thought you meant a summary or list of specifically medieval works that translate, discuss, or elaborate on Aristotle's writings, not Robert Fludd or Joseph Gabriel Frey.
RE: The Rosette folio and Aristotle's Meteorologica - R. Sale - 13-12-2016
I may need correction, but my understanding of Mr. Pelling's "Block Paradigm" is that the 'block' consists of a whole page of text. The comparison is based on the sequence of relatively longer and shorter lines found on the page of the VMs and finding a similar sequential structure in a corresponding plaintext. Sort of like having teeth of varying heights found of certain keys. Has this approach been validated by any proposed examples?
The consideration of word length in a sequence is a similar but separate investigation. If found, it would seem to depend on the similarity of both topic and the close relationship of languages, rather than on topic alone.