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The nimph with tongs? pincers? (f80r)

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• The nimph with tongs? pincers? (f80r)

• The nimph with tongs? pincers? (f80r)

  Searcher > 14-12-2016, 12:33 AM

  Description:
  
  This nymph is the second figure  in the central "canal" in the image on the f80r. Standing (going) in the water (or some liquid), she is dressed in the transparent (wet?) skirt, she holds some object in her hand, which looks similar to tongs or pincers.
  
  In this thread, I want to make a list of possible interpretations concerning the instrument and this person, in general.
  One or a few men made a supposition that this nymph may represent a woman in childbirth, and the tool in her hand is an obstetric forceps (after the second part of 16 c.). Another thought was made that this thing and the nymph could have some allegorical meaning.
  I also have a few suppositions as for this item. Let's begin from the "transparent skirt". I think it depicts a bathing clothes, just wet. 
  For example, as in bathing of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Now, about the thing similar to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or pincers. There are quite many kinds of tongs: blacksmith's tongs for coal (fireplace tongs, fire-tongs), goldsmith's tongs, dental tongs, ice tongs, etc.
  
  Tongs themselves are very old instrument:
  1). Ancient Greek: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
  HEPHAISTOS (Hephaestus) was the Olympian god of fire, smiths, craftsmen, metalworking, stonemasonry and sculpture. He was depicted as a bearded man holding a hammer and tongs - the tools of a smith, and, sometimes, riding a donkey.
  2).The Bible:
  Isaiah 6:6 "Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar."
  3). Pirkei Avot:
  "According to Pirkei Avot, a classical Jewish text of the third century of the common era, the first pair of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. were created by God right before God rested in the Seventh Day. The reasoning is that a blacksmith must use a pair of tongs in order to fashion a brand new pair of tongs. Accordingly, God must have provided humankind with the first pair of tongs."
  Pirkei Avot, chapter 5, mishnah 6 says:
  

  Quote:Ten things were created at twilight of Shabbat eve. These are: the mouth of the earth [that swallowed Korach]; the mouth of [Miriam's] well; the mouth of [Balaam's] ass; the rainbow; the manna; [Moses'] staff; the shamir; the writing, the inscription and the tablets [of the Ten Commandments]. Some say also the burial place of Moses and the ram of our father Abraham. And some say also the spirits of destruction as well as the original tongs, for tongs are made with tongs.

  4).You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  
  
  5). Alchemists (women and men) with tongs on images, 16c.:
  Anna Maria Zieglerin (ca. 1550–1575)
      
  A few versions representing alchemy.         
   
  
                  
  Alchemist's instruments:
  
  6). You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the devil.
  
  7). You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  
  
  8). Use in tortures (without images   )
  In conclusion: Most likely, men don't fit this story.  A woman with obstetric forceps can be worthy of note, if the VMs is a work written not earlier, than in the second part of the 16 century. On the other side, people, including alchemists, used fire-tongs from the earliest times, bathing (canals, liquids, lakes) in this case can mean You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., for example.

• RE: The nimph with tongs? pincers? (f80r)

  Linda > 14-12-2016, 06:58 AM

  I think it's an outside caliper by the look of it.
  
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  It's funny because I just saw a bunch of examples within the context of rainbows that had a similar instruments, dividers or compasses. I know the dates are late on at least a few of these.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Within my own interpretation, its inclusion is to inform of things like scale, distance, and direction.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  So, I think it's mathematical and geographical. I think the body of water portrayed is Lake Garda in Italy. It's the largest lake in Italy. It's shaped similarly. There is a yellow barrel under which the river-thing goes into the lake-thing in the MS, and in Lake Garda there is a sulphur spring (water that goes under the ground and comes up again yellow with sulphur) at that same location, in Sirmione. I think the skirt on the nymph in question symbolizes the mountainside and indicates ice and water runoff that goes into Lake Garda. In this case the other nymph would also be on the mountainside, there are two main peaks, but if you look at the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in photos, you'll see the one to the south generally has more clouds, hence more snow and ice, and is fatter than the northern part (as is the nymph) hence why that nymph is wearing the skirt. Here is a view of the area (castle is a bonus) the nymph's skirt would be the rocky part to the right of the turret.
  
  
  
  
  
  As with a lot of imagery in the MS I often find a second interpretation that builds upon the idea the first one covers, expanding upon the information, while remaining on topic. In this case it also has to do with the mountains, but this time the first nymph is Mount Baldo in its entirety, not just the northern part of the west slope. Can you almost see it above, the mountain just to the right of the upper part of the lake, with what seems like an outstretched arm? Across the valley where the Adige River flows, is another set of mountains, and that would be our skirted nymph, can you almost see that? It's wider at the bottom, and note the prominent waistband of another ridge that runs west/east in the middle of that system. This also drains into the Adige after it turns the corner toward Venice.
  
  Now, I'm not saying that they saw this view per se, but people of the time were climbing mountains and marking elevations, and this could be the anthropomorphized result of the plotting of these elevations by a cartographer. The calipers might bet telling us there is more than one scale being shown, various distances, and more than one direction. The fact that they are outside calipers could also indicate relief, as calipers would be better for measuring mountains than dividers (if large enough versions existed). It also resembles ice tongs, perhaps that is also indicated. In both cases it points to ruts in the mountains carved by ice flow and/or the resulting rivers.
  
  Lake Garda drains mainly into the Adriatic Sea via the Po river (largest river in Italy) near Venice. But the inclusion of the secondary interpretation includes the Adige River too, which is the second largest, flowing in parallel to the north of the Po and also draining into the Adriatic. It just seems like a geography lesson  of all the biggest water bodies, that are all connected to the sea in some way. There are other reasons I see this as a fitting identification, due to the other drawings on the page, and how they work together. I think it's upside down, things drawn above are south, and things drawn below are north, at least everything that's attached, but they are drawn from various perspectives, Lake Garda being east up and bigger than life compared to the drawing above it which is north up but with other odd perspectives involved. The other drawing not attached by river is located geographically in the middle of all of the rest, pretty much where the waters of Lake Garda flow down and meet the Po, which rounds out the story.
  
  It at least provided me a way to remember the geography of Italy in a novel manner, I certainly didn't know all that detail before I encountered the MS. So if that's not it, well, it did double duty and taught me this on the side.
  
  So, for your list, my interpretation of the thing and the nymph in the skirt is: calipers and ice on a mountain peak or two. Specifically, one side of Mount Baldo's ice melt flows into Garda and the Po, the other into the Adige.

• RE: The nimph with tongs? pincers? (f80r)

  VViews > 14-12-2016, 08:44 AM

  Searcher and Linda,
  
  wonderful pictures.... Its unfortunate that so many of them are too late for the Voynich, but still interesting.
  
  
  I just wanted to add a link here to the previous forum You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of the same You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. figure which you may find interesting, and where you'll find some other images and ideas for comparison of this object.

• RE: The nimph with tongs? pincers? (f80r)

  Davidsch > 14-12-2016, 11:30 AM

  Since it has not been pointed out before, might I add that the woman in this picture holds a similar shape: it looks like a hook or sickle.
  
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  Look closely.  It seems the sickle has cut the water or has cut a pipe ?

• RE: The nimph with tongs? pincers? (f80r)

  Koen G > 14-12-2016, 11:53 AM

  Looking at the construction of this thing, if it is to be taken literally, it's clear that it is meant for relatively delicate tasks. It has no handles for leverage, so no teeth pulling etc. Based on that alone, I'd say pincers or compasses rather than large tongs. Given their size, one might even call them tweezers.
  
  
  
  These were apparently used during construction to place stones. But they have small handles:
  
  
  Another option is that they are meant for shears 
  
  
  Which would make the thing posted by David a wool comb. Though one would always have to account for its placement on the figure (on the cheek??). I'd say that the arms were positioned so unnaturally because of another layer of meaning.

• RE: The nimph with tongs? pincers? (f80r)

  R. Sale > 14-12-2016, 06:25 PM

  Tongs or calipers, perhaps. But it does not have the flat, opposing blades necessary for sheep shears. Maybe it's a giant tweezers.
  
  Interesting to note in Linda's post (#2) that the cosmic sphere in the first image is surrounded by a cloud band based on a nebuly line that is somewhat irregular in its execution. And in further detail, the line itself, in the execution of the nebuly pattern, undulates throughout its length. The undulation itself appears to be a wavy line, but can't quite rule out engrailed. Sometimes these two get combined. So this is an example of another artistic technique in the the way that nebuly patterned cloud bands are represented.
  
  By way of comparison, the fifth image in Linda's post is a cosmos surrounded by a rainbow. It's interesting because it gives a depiction of how that artist saw things at that time, even though it differs from the Oresme representation in several ways. Certainly 'Cosmos' would be a good keyword for the VMs Ninja encyclopedia, although a lot of work has been done on the topic already.

• RE: The nimph with tongs? pincers? (f80r)

  Linda > 14-12-2016, 09:17 PM

  (14-12-2016, 11:30 AM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Since it has not been pointed out before, might I add that the woman in this picture holds a similar shape: it looks like a hook or sickle.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Look closely.  It seems the sickle has cut the water or has cut a pipe ?

  
  I took this to be a spoon, perhaps slotted. I forget why. Seems a bit snake like, maybe. Or a comb. I don't understand what is holding it in place, really. I don't see it as the same object though.

• RE: The nimph with tongs? pincers? (f80r)

  Searcher > 14-12-2016, 09:41 PM

  Thanks to all, who replied and added more examples to the list!
  Visually, I think,  ice tongs looks most similar, but it is too-o-o late for the VMs - 19 century, the same as sugar cubes tongs. 
  
  
  As well, calipers fit well.
  
  But it doesn't mean that there wasn't no equal or similar (as I don't expect an ideal identity) tool either! So, it seems the best candidates for this object are pincers, tongs, calipers or compasses and, even, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. 
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  Including:
  Epilation Forceps
  
  
  Abdominal forceps
  
  
  Surgical scissors
  
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  2. Medieval scissors:
  Medieval iron spring scissors
  Period: 15th century
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  FOUR WOMEN SEWING LINEN CLOTHES FROM THE TACUINUM SANITAS OF VIENNA, LATE 14TH CENTURY
  
  
  Book of Hours, France, Rouen, ca. 1490, MS M.144 fol. 6r
  
  
  Weltchronik (ÖNB 2921, fol. 19r), c. 1397-1398
  
  
   
  
  I think, really, it can be scissors or shears, especially, if those things on this and other pages is a spindle, but I don't exclude that it could be any medical forceps.

• RE: The nimph with tongs? pincers? (f80r)

  Linda > 14-12-2016, 09:43 PM

  (14-12-2016, 11:53 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Which would make the thing posted by David a wool comb. Though one would always have to account for its placement on the figure (on the cheek??). I'd say that the arms were positioned so unnaturally because of another layer of meaning.

  
  Agreed. There are others with this stance too.
  
  As for the one with the skirt, her arm is also drawn strangely and then the hand goes under the skirt, and is pointing. Don't have a clue what it means though. Seems to be extra lines to her body and her legs are a bit weird as well.

• RE: The nimph with tongs? pincers? (f80r)

  Searcher > 15-12-2016, 12:53 AM

  My intermediate conclusion:
  1) unidentified things which nymphs hold in their hands likely must relate to each other;
  2) they may have direct or abstract meaning; so:
  a) if we suppose that the object in the hands of the two nymphs in the top row of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a spindle, the nymph in the central row, probably, keep scissors or shears (images are in the post #8 of this thread);
  b) if we suppose that the nymph in the central row hold a pair of compasses or calipers, it is possible that the nymphs in the top row keep a plummet,
  
       
  
  
  ... hence the cross in nymph's hands on the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. may mean a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
  
     
  
  
  These pictures are of 16 century, but the staff itself is appeared in 14 c.
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  Food for thought, as always.
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