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| Apophatic theory |
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Posted by: R. Sale - 20-07-2021, 06:53 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (4)
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I wasn't going to mention it, but ...
A theory is just a theory, if there is no example. But if a theory has an example, then what is it?
As a potential VMs example, there are the VMs rainbows of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and f83v. And there is, or at least there could be, that ever persistent question: Who dat *NOT* sitting on their double rainbow throne?!
Multiple medieval works of art depict Christ on such a throne. However that is not the only possibility, as the works of Christine de Pizan show classical deities seated on rainbows. And perhaps there was no intended occupant. So there's nothing really there to narrow down the possibilities. But listen to the VMs. There are only a few areas, a few peaks that rise above the fog of VMs obfuscation.
First is the VMs cosmos - tied by comparison to Paris from 1410, to the library of the Duke of Berry (d. 1416) by BNF Fr.565, and to the years around 1430 by Harley 334. While historically during the Hundred Years war, England, allied with the Duchy Burgundy, held control of Paris form 1420 to 1435.
Second is mythical Melusine, the mermaid-like, Luxembourg interpretation believed ancestral to the Valois rulers of France, etc. including the Dukes of Burgundy. Her presence still represented (and historically noted) at the Feast of the Pheasant, celebrated by the Duke of Burgundy in 1454.
Then there is the matter of the Golden Fleece: Rather ambiguous, many interpretations both pro and con. One clear fact: that it originated in 1430 from the Duke of Burgundy. One potential representation associated with Melusine, the other known as the VMs 'critter' on f80v. Here the ambiguous representation has a three-part structure of the creature itself, a nebuly line, and potential droplets. This structure is known to repeat in the 1313 Apocalypse of S Jean : Agnus Dei, cosmic boundary, droplets of blood. The golden fleece image has merged with the Agnus Dei lamb, like Melusine with the generic mermaid. Provenance indicates that the 1313 text was later a part of the library of the Dukes of Burgundy.
In light of the above then, reconsider the original question: who dat? Who is not sitting on their rainbow throne? Is there a significant religious event that is compatible in both time and place? Indeed, there is! La Sainte Hostie de Dijon.
This set of interpretations would seem to reveal a fairly detailed familiarity with a specific, historical period of time, that is also compatible with the C-14 parchment dating. Such information could be gathered through life experience, or by knowledgeable research. Dumb luck seems unlikely to encompass so many mutually compatible details.
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| 1400s amateur crypto and human puzzle tendencies |
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Posted by: byatan - 18-07-2021, 01:24 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (9)
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I understand that during the time period the ms was written, it is well documented that crypto was in common use for general government written communications that might foreseeably be subject to inspection by one's adversaries.
This has the implication that knowledge of the existence and use of crypto, if not of the specific methods themselves, would have been reasonably widespread beyond those who actually used or computed crypto for official purposes. I don't know how well this is documented; namely: how much evidence is there for the use of cryptography outside of government in the early renaissance?
What are some estimates of the contemporary distribution of literacy in terms of profession?
If today's humans are any indication, some of those with writing ability would have had the tendency to create or explore various written puzzles. Crypto is an obvious option here. What kind of written puzzles did the literate engage in?
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| Contemporary knowledge of the ms |
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Posted by: byatan - 17-07-2021, 07:02 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (1)
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It should be easy to think that the creator(s) of the ms were not the only individual(s) to have seen it when now lost context concerning use and contents remained within living memory.
Not having seen any, what are your imagined probability distributions for:
1) the number of people who could decipher it or knew definitively that it is not readable and why (not necessarily the same as number of creators)
-max at any one time
-in total
2) the number of people who had seen at least part of the ms (or a copy) in person, in conjunction with someone from 1); in other words, number of people who had seen at least some part of the ms "demonstrated" or "used" by someone who could decipher it or knew definitively that it is not readable and why.
-max at any one time
-in total
3) the number of people who were aware of the existence of the ms, but had not seen it (or a copy) in person, while at least one person from 1) was alive
-max at any one time
-in total
4) the maximum number of complete copies of the ms at any given time while at least one person from 1) was alive
5) the maximum number of partial copies of the ms at any given time while at least one person from 1) was alive
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| Engineering your own voynich |
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Posted by: byatan - 15-07-2021, 07:45 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (138)
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How simple is it to engineer and then have reverse engineered a modern superficial voynich imitation? Let's see.
The imitation should probably use methods which 1) are plausible for the period, and 2) compatible with the ms.
To start, I have enciphered some English text in a way that the ciphertext could appear superficially similar to voynichese. The process used is deterministic, reversible, and with unoptimized parameters. Lots of mistakes must have been made.
What does it say in English?
FaiT Kzz nmnuy maig qar Tiooiea bar nmaei Tmz qooiea Tiaeean bar nmaei Teib Tiiiiz Tieir Kimb mvg Kaiin Fvg Tiiig Kieiiea kiin Fmq Fiiiiz mayun Taiyun qiiiaT mmq TIeig faaig Fiaean Kaaeaei Faiyun Foonuy Tiavinn Tiaeaei Tiiiig FaiT Kzz KaEg qiimiea mool mail maiiea Tiiiig Kiiag Kieiiea fieeean Tiig Kaiiea naaiben ner naek qeK niinuy mmiea TIayun nat Fooix famean fvT Kiiiyun Kaaaouy miig mmn tauYnh Fioog KaeiT kiaq meaei Tiavinn Tienuy Faiyun Foog fiin FvT Tiaaouy qayun Tiaean Kamean Fiin Faaei mael Fir Tian Fooyun Fiiiyun Faiyun FooT fiiir Tian Fooyun Fiiiyun Tiooz fieik faoob Kaeyun mmr teaei Tiaeean Fml mmq Fiaq meaei Tiavinn Tiiin Fooiea Tiaeean bar nmaei Teib miiiz fiiig Kaiin Faq Fmyun Kier mvr faaiaei Fmyun Taeaei Kamg Tieeg Faiyun nat Fooinuy mail Tiiiig qeK niinuy naeyun naz miiit Fooiouy Kianuy Kaiin Feig maaean TiiuYnh faoyun nanuy qiieiyun Fzl Fiag fiinuy faaiz Kaayun faob mmn Taig Kaayun Tieaei Keiyun nmyun naaean Fiig fiaean mvq qiimn maiK Fil meq qiiipen Kieaei Kiin Feez Kimz Kaal faainuy Fmean Fiit Fooiq Teiyun KaiT Kaiiean Tmpen Tial Taiz faaz fimg mail faaiiea Tiiiig Kieig TiiiT fiiinuy Tiiiiz Tieeg Kiar nmaei Kal kaeean Fmr nzg Kaeiz Kayun naean Fmg TaaT fiiinuy Timyun Taeaei nmnuy Tiaet fiaeben mail TIeig Tiiiig Fiiiz miinuy Fiiyun TaiK Kaab Fiviea qiial mooiyun nayun Kimaei KazT TiiiT fiiinuy Timyun Taeaei Tiaenuy TImr Feinuy kaaq qooil Fmean qiiiayun mzg Kaeiz Ka
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| only for wizards and witches here |
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Posted by: Pythagoras - 14-07-2021, 07:36 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (4)
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perhaps only wizards and or witches are supposed to read this document.
for brute force can harm, but the force of language can disarm even the brutest brute.
and magical knowledge can be kept within secured.
and prevent the Golem from being unleashed.
so it might be a source of inductance into the teachings of wizardry and witchery?
only for those into esoteric teachings.
should we attempt to read it then? if we are but mere scholars?
or let the past lay with the wizards and witches of old?
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| Topic Modeling in the Voynich Manuscript |
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Posted by: Torsten - 08-07-2021, 09:52 PM - Forum: News
- Replies (18)
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There is a new paper published about the VMS: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The Authors of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are Rachel Sterneck, Annie Polish and Claire Bowern.
The abstract says:
Quote:This article presents the results of investigations using topic modeling of the Voynich Manuscript (Beinecke MS408). Topic modeling is a set of computational methods which are used to identify clusters of subjects within text. We use latent dirichlet allocation, latent semantic analysis, and nonnegative matrix factorization to cluster Voynich pages into `topics'. We then compare the topics derived from the computational models to clusters derived from the Voynich illustrations and from paleographic analysis. We find that computationally derived clusters match closely to a conjunction of scribe and subject matter (as per the illustrations), providing further evidence that the Voynich Manuscript contains meaningful text.
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| Is the Voynich illegible? |
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Posted by: Mark Knowles - 06-07-2021, 01:37 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (24)
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I find it very difficult to read the faded smudged and often faint text. How can we possibly decipher the text of the Voynich when it is so hard to read in the first place?
Now in an ideal world we would have access to even higher resolution scans of the manuscript which might make it easier to determine what is written. However it seems very unlikely that there will be significantly higher resolution scans available any time soon. Frankly scans going down to a molecular level of resolution would not seem completely ridiculous.
Determining the precise pen motion corresponding to the blotchy characters is hard at the moment.
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