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| A Florentine grain dealer's ledger |
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Posted by: RenegadeHealer - 29-07-2020, 07:41 PM - Forum: Codicology and Paleography
- Replies (2)
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Citation: Florentine Grain Dealer Account Book, 1466-1524. (SPC) MSS BH 005 COCH
Inspired by Helmut's comment about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., I decided to do a deep dive into Google Images looking for medieval ledgers and trade books. I'm sure if I understood Italian that would be a big help, but somehow I still imagine I wouldn't be able to reliably transcribe this page into normal Roman letters and Arabic numerals. Especially the last line. Is this just my modern eye not used to a very different but commonly readable type of medieval script, or is this the intentional use of obfuscation to keep sensitive information private?
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| On purpose |
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Posted by: Mark Knowles - 29-07-2020, 05:12 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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I read people often write about what the purpose of the Voynich manuscript was. Why did the author write it? What function did it serve?
I seems to be a singular document, so to some people there must have been a singular purpose.
It is natural to view things in very functional terms. However in our own lives all the things we do are not governed by quite so functional goals.
Lots of people do things for rather nebulous reasons. If we ask why someone is researching the Voynich then they might answer, because they enjoy it. Of course, enjoyment could be said to be some kind of functional goal, neurologically speaking.
I suppose I wonder if the author(s) wrote the manuscript in whole or in part out of enjoyment, as a puzzle, a challenge or just an entertaining pastime.
Of course there likely was more than one motive for writing it, but I don't see why we should not consider pure pleasure as a significant motivating factor.
So many of the things we do are done out of pleasure.
Why are you eating pasta for dinner? Because I like it.
Why are you going to the theatre? Because I enjoy it.
Why are you reading that detective novel? Because it entertains me.
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| Masterpiece? |
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Posted by: Koen G - 27-07-2020, 11:05 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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I was browsing around and came across this quote on Claus Schmeh's site You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. :
Quote:[Rene] could also imagine that the manuscript is someone’s masterpiece, to be used to enter one of the secret societies that existed at the time.
It's the first time I remember hearing of this practice. Was this done in the early 15th century? What kind of societies would we be talking about? Or is this purely hypothetical since they would have been secret?
I find this idea intriguing but know very little about it.
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| What did the nymph on the mid-left edge of f80v originally have in her hand? |
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Posted by: RenegadeHealer - 25-07-2020, 12:04 AM - Forum: Imagery
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I couldn't find a previous discussion on this.
It looks like some written characters, or a rough initial sketch of an object to be held in her hand, was originally planned for this picture, and then abandoned. Maybe partially erased.
I almost put this thread in Marginalia, which didn't feel quite right. When I looked close and long enough, I was less and less sure this was a written word in any script or language.
I'm also open to the possibility that this is just a stain that occurred in a weird location.
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| Trying to see examples of Johannes Hartlieb's handwriting |
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Posted by: MichelleL11 - 19-07-2020, 06:48 PM - Forum: Codicology and Paleography
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Although I greatly respect the support for the view that Johannes Hartlieb is a bit too late and probably "too famous" (what would be the chances?) to be the VM author, I did want to see his handwriting, if possible.
As kindly provided by Helmut Winkler in this thread:
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exemplars of his handwriting are available in Frank Furbeth's book, Johannes Hartlieb, Untersuchungen zu Leben und Werk, specifically page 280.
But I've either read too much of it or that specific page is somehow blocked from me. I even tried logging in with another computer but I guess the address is the same(?) so I was similarly blocked.
Direct link: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
If someone could retrieve that page and post it, I'd be really grateful.
I also note that there may be the same handwriting samples at Karl Drescher, "Johann Hartlieb" Eurphorion vol (26 or maybe 25,the cites are inconsistent) (1924) at page 348 but this seems less likely to be available -- probably because of copyright, or maybe just chance, I've only found older volumes of this German literary magazine available online.
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| VMs f57v: Subtle patterns |
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Posted by: R. Sale - 19-07-2020, 05:57 PM - Forum: Imagery
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The 4 x 17 symbol sequence in the penultimate outer band of text has some subtle patterns if the first five symbols are interpreted according to common and traditional methods.
The symbols, given the EVA designations o, l, d, r, v, need to be seen in their Voynichese representations. First of all there are three examples of potential visual interpretation supported by structural placement.
Using medieval numerical symbols of the forms found on Typus Arithmetica, the looping "l' of the second symbol is a numeral "4" and the fifth symbol "v" (actually an inverted "v") matches the numeral "7". The placement of these symbols, two spaces apart is the proper structure in the numerical sequence.
Similarly, using the Greek alphabet, the fifth symbol is the letter "lambda" and the first symbol is the letter "omicron". Here again, the placement is correct. Greek can be read in both directions. Structure helps to confirm interpretation. There is no question about the structure.
Thirdly, "v" is a letter in the Roman alphabet. In this case it is inverted. The same symbol is also used in the Roman Numeral system to represent "5". It is numeral "5" in position five - inverted. Position matches interpretation.
Greek was also an alpha-numeric system, so that all three interpretations could be numerical.
The sixth symbol in the 4 x 17 sequence is a quincunx. The quincunx is used in astrology to represent a relationship between the primary sign and the fifth sign following. That relationship, as I see it set forth, is one of conflict, blockade, and challenge, suggesting a reexamining and rethinking of the situation.
When the path of medieval numerical interpretation is blocked by the quincunx, it can return via the Greek system and then possibly proceed further using the Roman system (numerals or alphabet) - potentially 'inverted' - whatever that might mean. (Not sure how that works out on paper, but it seems interesting.)
The quincunx as a coin has a numerical value of 5/12. In the VMs Zodiac sequence, the first five houses are the ones containing pairs or were made to be pairs.
The patterns are subtle, but real; meaningful is another question. Further evaluation will help to make that determination.
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| How did Currier get two scripts? |
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Posted by: Tom Mazanec - 19-07-2020, 05:23 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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How was it shown that there was a Voynichese-A and a Voynichese-B? Please, keep this about Sunday Science Supplement level...I have Bachelor Degrees in Astronomy and Computer Science but they are decades rusty and I was never a Cryptographer.
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| How do you know when an encrypted book is solved? |
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Posted by: Tom Mazanec - 17-07-2020, 08:34 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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There are over 100 encrypted books:
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some solved, some unsolved. But how do you know when you have actually solved it? There are so many solutions to the VMS that I may have to take off my shoes and socks to count them...and each one of these 10+ persons "solving" it thought his/her solution was correct. How do you know for sure?
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| Psychology of the Voynich Manuscript - Related Scholarship |
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Posted by: MichelleL11 - 17-07-2020, 07:12 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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Hi, All:
I wanted to bring this dissertation to the group's attention:
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Cultural Uses of Magic in Fifteenth Century England by Laura T Mitchell
I will start with the disclaimers -- yes, it's England and yes, it discusses "magic" (lots of focus on charms) and yes, I know that both of these are big question marks when it come to the Voynich (e.g., we don't know "where" and we don't know "what").
But here is the value I found in this scholarship: The manuscripts that she discusses are concrete examples of theories that have been put forth for the Voynich.
After doing a general survey of magic in manuscripts in England (very interesting, but maybe not applicable for the disclaimers discussed above) she moved on to the focused manuscript topics I found quite useful.
She takes several different manuscripts produced in the general time period of the carbon dating and discusses reasoning behind WHY they were produced and what aspects of the manuscripts, in a very broad sense, she used to discern these motivations.
The first is a manuscript produced as a collective effort by a "lower gentry household", the Holdenby or Haldenby family (see, Chapter 2).
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It doesn't "look like" the Voynich, but it was made with vellum and with multiple hands (10!). Colophons indicate that various family members were involved.
This is a concrete example of the "communal book" theory in practice.
Mitchell talks about copying outside of monasteries, the role of book ownership and social status, the role of "wonder" in the Middle Ages, and the role of secrets and concludes:
"The actual knowledge contained inside the book was often secondary to the air of authority gained by possessing it in the first place." (p. 99)
Now I know this is something often assumed in the Voynich community -- but it was helpful to me to see it in a work of scholarship. An aside: Interestingly, the most blatant reference to "charms" had been erased, but can be seen under UV light.
The next chapter discusses another concrete example commonly discussed in relation to the Voynich -- the personal notebook. Now this one is paper and has only one hand and hasn't been digitized, but there are interesting discussions of the personality of the (unknown) owner based on the magical content. So this has less to do with the Voynich on the surface, at least, but it was interesting. I'm not sure I agree completely with the whole connection between "masculine" identity and ownerships of manuscripts idea (which is just discussed by Mitchell, this is the primary work of Frank Klasssen -- but I haven't read the background scholarship (role of nude nymphs, anyone?).
Next, there is a chapter for a manuscript discussing the physician (or charlatan) reference as well as the "advertising" theory. Because of the colophon, the owner and the scribe are both known. The owner was likely a "part-time" physician. The scribe was a law student/teacher in training. Interestingly, Mitchell states that if scribes are hired, this was the most costly part of the book making process, more expensive than the materials (see page 169). Mitchell discusses how the unusual colophon functioned as an advertisement for both the physician and the scribe. Link to some pages:
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An aside: This is a (the?) source of the famous colophon quote:
Nunc scripsi totum pro christo da mihi potum. (Now that I have written the whole for Christ; give me a drink.)
TL/DR: The PhD thesis by Laura Mitchell discusses manuscripts from 15th century England that personify theories about the "psychology" of the Voynich. It is readable and well researched -- recommended!
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![[Image: 63e1d8_11749bc2e8fdfb81182a13bda0b6903f.webp]](https://static.wixstatic.com/media/63e1d8_11749bc2e8fdfb81182a13bda0b6903f.jpg/v1/fill/w_381,h_620,al_c,q_90,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/63e1d8_11749bc2e8fdfb81182a13bda0b6903f.webp)