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Elephant in the Room Solu...
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Starred Parags: the last ...
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Folio reorder in the herb...
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Distribution of Q-Q gaps ...
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structural medical encodi...
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ORIGINAL stains on the ve...
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On the word "luez" in the...
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| Palmierite (and atacamite?) |
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Posted by: ReneZ - 28-11-2025, 09:05 AM - Forum: Physical material
- Replies (10)
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(28-11-2025, 08:32 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I had to remove a line from the article about the mineral You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that claimed that it was used as a paint pigment in the VMS. Just because the McCrone technician copy-pasted the output of their spectrum-matching software onto the report, without checking what palmerite was.
I just removed that reference to the VMS from the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. article. And another one from the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. article. See the respective Talk pages. Please let me know if you find other cases.
To be honest, from where I stand the removal of the plant ID hypotheses is fully justified, but the removal of the line about palmierite is doing the opposite: replacing information from a technical report by an opinion of a non-expert.
Strictly speaking, the report says: "possibly minor amounts of lead sulfide and palmierite", so at least the word "possibly" (or equivalent) should have been there.
However, I don't want to make a point of it, because the whole article says noting at all, and having just the Voynich MS reference doesn't really make any sense.
In earlier days there was a similar discussion about atacamite, which some people thought was non-European. This material was found in other pieces of art in Italy, though. (This is from memory so "C.E.").
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| How quickly did the VMS leave the possession of those who understood it? |
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Posted by: Skoove - 28-11-2025, 05:07 AM - Forum: Provenance & history
- Replies (25)
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Just for a fun discussion, I thought I would ask for peoples opinions on when the VMS left the hands of its original creator(s)? I know that some believe that those who created it didn't understand it, either because it is gibberish or because they were simply scribes for an author who was the only one who knew. As far as I know, we have relatively good evidence that by about 1575 the manuscripts was in the hands of those who didn't even understand what it was supposed to be, let alone be able to read it.
I think that there is other physical evidence in the manuscript that prior to this, it was already in the hands of someone who didn't understand it. Namely because of the incorrect binding, incorrect painting, POSSIBLE retracing by someone who didn't get what the original glyphs were and also the marginalia?
Since the incorrect binding happened not too long after the creation of the manuscript, I personally think that within a generation or two the manuscript somehow left those who had originally devised it then began being passed around as a curiosity by others who had no understanding of it.
I'm not sure if this conjecture would really help in solving any part of the script, but if it became 'displaced' so quickly after its creation it might suggest that it was not a wide spread task or it was only intended for usage by a single individual.
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| [split] Questions about academic publication of Voynich papers |
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Posted by: Rafal - 27-11-2025, 11:24 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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Quote:There is an extra expense that authors must pay to make a study open-access. On the balance, I decided it would be worth it in the long term to pay that up-front cost.
I will ask maybe a naive question. if you publish in Cryptologia do they pay you for that or do you pay them for that?
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| Naibbe cipher paper |
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Posted by: magnesium - 27-11-2025, 01:24 PM - Forum: News
- Replies (19)
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My open-access paper describing the Naibbe cipher is now out in Cryptologia: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Thank you all very much for letting me present the cipher at VMD and for all your insightful feedback on the forum. It greatly improved the final paper.
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| Is the VM inspired by late-antique and medieval riddle books? |
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Posted by: JustAnotherTheory - 27-11-2025, 08:32 AM - Forum: Theories & Solutions
- Replies (7)
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Hi,
I may have a theory about the contents of the manuscript, based on the illustrations. I haven't seen this idea before so I thought I'd post it here and get some feedback from long-time researchers of the manuscript.
In a nutshell, I propose that the manuscript, or at least large parts of it, is inspired by late-antique and medieval riddle books. Examples of such riddle books include:
- The Bern Riddles
- Aldhelm Riddles
- Riddles of Symphosius
- Enigmata Eusebii
Such books were common (and popular) in the 1400s, as they were often copied by scribes and compiled into Codexes containing one or more riddle books. Each book contained about 100 riddles, which were written in Latin hexameter, and the goal was to find the solutions that corresponded to the descriptive Latin riddles.
Now the thing with these riddle books is that they contain very vivid, often imaginary descriptions and anthropomorphisations of plants, astronomical phenomena, celestial cycles (sun and moon), zodiac animals, containers, vessels, baths and channels. A person who would actually (literally) draw these riddles would end up with fantastical botanical plants, nonsense looking tubes, weird animals and strange descriptions of celestial phenomena. I'll give a few examples below.
Starting with the botanical section, multiple riddle books show eery matches to the VM: Symphosius alone contains vivid, imaginary descriptions of roses (Riddle 45), poppy (Riddle 40), beet (Riddle 42), as does Aldhelm with Riddle 98: Elleborus (hellebore), Riddle 77: Ficulnea (fig tree). The Bern Riddle book has Riddle 13: De Uite (grapevine), which to me would match the illustration on folio f17v, Riddle 14: De Oliua (olive), Riddle 15: De Palme (palm tree), Riddle 37: De Pipere (pepper plant), Riddle 39: De Hedera (ivy), etc... The Bern book has a wealth of other plants and fantastical botanical descriptions.
Note that these riddles are often written in a visually strange manner, so as to "guide" the solver to the solution by metaphores. Here is an excerpt from Aldhelm Riddle 98: Hellebore:
"A purple flower, I grow in the fields with shaggy foliage.
I am very similar to an oyster: thus with reddened dye of scarlet
a purplish blood oozes by drops from my branches.
I do not wish to snatch away the spoils of life from him who eats me,
nor do my gentle poisons deprive him utterly of reason.
Nevertheless a certain touch of insanity torments him
as, mad with dizziness, he whirls his limbs in a circle"
As you can see, if one were to LITERALLY draw this plant, it would look very strange. All of the riddles are like this, which begs the question, were they used as inspiration for the VM.
As for the balneary folios, there are several interesting candidates: Symphosius' riddles contain many such riddles, for example Riddle 89: Balneum, Riddle 70: Clepsydra (water clock), Riddle 71: Puteus (water well), Riddle 72: Tubus ligneus (wooden pipe). Some of these contain references to tubes or tube-like objects.
Astronomical or astrological riddles are abundant in the above mentioned books. Some of them are highly reminiscent of folios in the VM: Eusebiua mentions the leap day evey fourth year (Riddle 26: De die bissextili, very reminiscent (at least to my eyes) of folio f68r3), Riddle 29: De aetate et saltu, Aldhelm has Riddle 58: Vesper Sidus (evening star), Riddle 48: Vertico Poli (Sphere of the heavens), Riddle 79: Sol et luna (sun and the moon), Riddle 8: Pleiades, ... The Bern Riddles contains astronomical references as well, Riddle 62: De Stellis (stars), ...
A few curiosities or striking coincidences also exist. An example is Aldhelm riddle 24: Dracontia. It describes the act of being produced by the head of a dragon, which we can see in folio f25v, where there is a dragon's head creating a plant. Or Aldhelm Riddle 55: Chrismal, which describes a multi-layered tube-like container for holding holy oils (which were used at the time of the creation of the VM), which eerily ressembles the curious objects in folios f102r1 and f102v1.
You can find all the riddles, in original Latin as well their English translations on this (awesome) website:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
There re also pretty good lists of the riddles on Wikipedia, I'll paste a few of them here for reference:
- The Bern Riddles: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- The Aldhelm Riddles: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Aenigmata Symphosius: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Engimata Eusebii: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
At the time of creation of the VM (around 1400s according to carbon dating of the vellum), many Codexes existed that collected these riddles into a single book. This would have made it easy, for someone looking for inspiration for many different plants, celestial objects, baths, ... to do so from a single codex.
What do you think? Could the VM be (at least partially) inspired by contemporary riddle books?
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| Viewing the MS as a guide to conception and pregnancy |
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Posted by: fabmas - 27-11-2025, 04:17 AM - Forum: Theories & Solutions
- Replies (19)
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A proposal to read the manuscript as an operational guide to fertility, conception, and medieval gynecological health.
1. Introduction and Personal Intuition
I hypothesized that the manuscript is not a random collection of texts of diverse nature, but a progressive medical manual (a "Step-by-step guide") specifically dedicated to women's health, pre-conception purification, and obstetrics.
According to my analysis, the order of the sections is not accidental but follows the logic of the biological cycle: it starts with the preparation of the body (Botanical), moves to the choice of timing (Astronomical), analyzes internal effects (Balneological), observes fetal development (Cosmological), leads to the practical preparation of remedies (Pharmaceutical), and concludes with the use of the final index, that takes the place of the "recipe" part.
2. The Problem I Encountered
Traditional interpretations struggle to convincingly explain the presence of what I call "botanical chimeras" (non-existent or assembled plants) and the anomaly of female figures inserted into zodiac diagrams. My idea is that, by applying the medieval Doctrine of Signatures and interpreting the text as a work on the "Secrets of Women" (often censored or encrypted to avoid ecclesiastical condemnation), these apparently absurd images acquire a perfectly coherent metaphorical meaning.
3. My Sequential Analysis of the Sections
Phase 1: Botanical (Preparation and Purification) - What I observed: The illustrations show plants often composed of parts from different species (e.g., disproportionate roots, flowers grafted onto non-matching stems).
- My deduction: I believe this is not a taxonomic herbarium, but a functional one. The plants represent ingredients chosen for their purifying and purgative properties, essential in the humoral medicine of the time to prepare the womb for conception.
- Key Detail: I noticed that the roots and stems, sometimes anthropomorphic or similar to organs/tubes, seem to visually indicate the target organ to be "purged," in line with the logic of signatures.
Phase 2: Astronomy and Astrology (The Timing)- What I observed: Zodiacs with female figures (often nude or in tubs) positioned at the center or edges of the signs.
- My deduction: I do not believe this is a generic horoscope, but a fertility calendar. It serves to indicate the propitious moments (lunar phases and specific months) to administer the cures described in Phase 1 or to attempt conception.
- Key Detail: The obsessive presence of women in the zodiac signs (e.g., Pisces, Aries) suggests to me that the focus is exclusively on the astral influence related to the menstrual and uterine cycle.
Phase 3: Balneological (Internal Anatomy and Diagnosis)- What I observed: Nude women immersed in green/blue tubs, connected by complex plumbing systems.
- My deduction: I interpret this section as a metaphorical representation of female anatomical hydraulics. The tubes are not hydraulic, but biological (fallopian tubes, veins, intestines). The tubs represent the organs (uterus, bladder).
- My visual interpretation:
- Happy women/high up: Indicate correct flow of humors, successful purification, and therefore fertility.
- Sad/upside-down/dead women: Indicate obstruction of the "tubes," illness, sterility, or miscarriage caused by lack of treatment.
- I think the "nymphs" could metaphorically represent the ova or the vital principle ("homunculus") traveling through the body.
Phase 4: Cosmology and Rosettes (Embryology and Development)- What I observed: The famous foldout (Folio 86v) with 6 connected circular structures and a central vortex.
- My deduction: I see here a representation of the Microcosm (womb) in parallel with the Macrocosm, describing the journey of the fetus.
- The Central Vortex: I identify this as the moment of conception/fertilization.
- The Castles/Islands: Represent the different "chambers" or stages of fetal development ("cooking" of the fetus according to medieval medicine).
- The Walls/Towers: Are the protective membranes (amnion/chorion) defending the nascent life.
Phase 5: Pharmaceutical (Medical Technology)- What I observed: Roots, leaves, and jars (albarelli).
- My deduction: This is the practical laboratory manual. After identifying the plants (Phase 1) and the right time (Phase 2), this section explains how to transform them into bio-available medicines (decoctions, ointments) to achieve the effects seen in Phase 3.
Phase 6: Final Text and "Stars" (The Reasoned Index)- What I observed: Blocks of dense text with stylized stars/flowers in the margin, varying in shape and color.
- My deduction: I believe this section, often ignored, is the fundamental key to reading the manuscript. It does not contain recipes, but acts as an Index or Marginal Notes.
- The Star Code: I noticed that the marginal stars vary by color (Red, Blue, Gold) and shape (filled, hollow, number of points).
- I hypothesize that each type of star is an analog "hyperlink" referring back to one of the previous sections (e.g., Red Star = Reference to Botanical; Blue Star = Reference to Balneological).
4. Conclusion
In conclusion, I believe the Voynich Manuscript does not need to be read as a geographical or mystical-religious code. The reading most consistent with "Occam's Razor," according to my analysis, is that of a practical, sequential, and logically structured medical manual for human reproductive assistance. The encryption of the text would be explained by the need to protect gynecological knowledge considered taboo or dangerous ("Secrets of Women") in 15th-century Europe.
Proposal for Verification
I suggest statistically analyzing the recurrence of glyphs in the final section (Phase 6) in correlation with the colors and shapes of the marginal stars, to verify if patterns exist that lead back to the specific lexicon of the previous sections, thus confirming my index theory.
This work is based on my studies on history in school and by self-taught, and obviously by some curiosity that sparked in me some months ago. I hope that even this theory doesn't lead anywhere on it's own, it may spark some new theories that finally may lead to the discovery of something new.
(P.S sorry for the formatting of the text i don't know what happened)
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| Viola (odorata or tricolor) |
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Posted by: ReneZ - 26-11-2025, 12:50 AM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (49)
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(25-11-2025, 08:41 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (25-11-2025, 08:20 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Yes, I think so. The name is usually just given as 'Viola'.
Viola odorata is the common violet. Viola tricolor is the pansy (forget-me-not).
Viola odorata (or at least the current garden variety) usually grows in compact clusters of roundish leaves,close to the ground. Viola tricolor grows taller and has elongated leaves, with one sharpish point near the ground and multiple sharpish points higher up.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is almost surely Viola tricolor, because of the shape of the leaves and flowers. Except that the flowers are upside-down...
The scientific name Viola was taken from the common name "violet" or "viola" for the odorata species. I don't think that common name was ever used for any other species, including tricolor. Only modern botanists know that the pansy is a Viola too.
Let's look at this a bit more.
One difference between the viola illustrations in the Tractatus de Herbis and in the Voynich MS is that the former has the name 'viola' written near them, while in the Voynich MS we don't have this (yet).
I do not know whether the text in the Tractatus provides further details about which particular type of viola is meant. It may well do that, and maybe someone can say something about that.
However, the second largest difference is in the shapes of the leaves. So I agree that the ones in Tractatus look more like those of viola odorata and the ones in the Voynich MS look more like viola tricolor.
There is a third aspect, which is related to the colours. Here, I think we have good reason to be very cautious. Without having to assume that the colours were added much later by someone who did not know what to use, it is clear that the colour palette is very unusual. Most obvious is that there is far too much blue.
It would be a fundamental logical error to say on the one hand that colours cannot be relied upon in general, but at the same time, when they happen to match, to say that this match is usable evidence.
(I hope I phrased that in an understandable way).
This problem is not limited to the colours.
The vast majority of plants in the MS cannot really be identified. Numerous cases have been called either impossible, or rather composites of parts from different plants.
At the same time, I am of the opinion that the person (or persons) who drew the plant outlines, was quite capable of doing this. There are many details that are entirely realistic. It is completely different from the quality of the human figures. I'd like to hear from others how they see this. I'm a bit lazy right now to create many clips of these drawings to make this point clearer, but I might do it later.
This is a bit of a contradiction. Someone, who was apparently capable of drawing plants, did not manage to draw many realistic plants.
One possible explanation for this is that he was working from written descriptions. He put the plants together from elements he had seen. (Again, I can refer to the description of 'Musa' - the banana plant - in the Tractatus de Herbis, which is wrong, and was created in exactly this manner).
However, there can be other explanations, for example that they were never intended to represent real plants. The whole book may have been a medieval hoax.
Regardless of this uncertainty, the same problem remains. The majority of plants cannot be positively identified, so when there is an occasional good match, how can we use this good match as evidence?
While I don't want to ignore the medieval hoax option, I find the case of drawings from written descriptions more interesting. In that case, the 'artist' could well have seen the word viola in the text, and drew the type of viola he had seen in the field.
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| Rotating Images |
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Posted by: Mark Knowles - 25-11-2025, 09:56 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (6)
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I have been working through the Voynich manuscript assembling all the more distinctively spelled words I could find and I have nearly finished. The last words to finish compiling are the words on pages with text written around circles. I have been using Microsoft Paint as it is simple and I know it well, however it is not very useful well dealing with text written around circles as the rotate options are very limited. I have Photoshop, so I know there are more complex tools that would do the job. But Photoshop has a lot of functionality that I don't need for this purpose and I want to make to process as simple and straightforward as I can. I wonder if there is some program like Paint, but with better rotate page functionality. What programs do other people use for working with Voynich images?
Also I wonder if maybe there is program that can flatten the circle text in one go.
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