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The claimed Voynich page
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Voynich Zoom CFP
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2 hours ago
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Water, earth and air
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The Book Switch Theory
Forum: Theories & Solutions
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2 hours ago
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Can we go further?
Forum: Analysis of the text
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10 hours ago
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No text, but a visual cod...
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11 hours ago
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The origin of Fabrizio Sa...
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Today, 09:40 AM
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f17r multispectral images
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Why and how the text coul...
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Today, 08:07 AM
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Voynich Marijuana Plant D...
Forum: Analysis of the text
Last Post: Bluetoes101
Today, 01:14 AM
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| Statistical properties of notebook jottings at the line, paragraph, and page level? |
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Posted by: RenegadeHealer - 20-02-2021, 10:25 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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I write manuscripts. In medical school, I was known affectionately as that quirky student who attended every class, and furiously hand-wrote as much of what was said, and presented on the screen, as I could manage to write down. I challenged myself to write as grammatically correctly and completely as possible, so that I'd be able to use my notebook as a text to study later. It seemed to work; I can attest that writing something out by hand is a great way to commit it to memory. But I eventually realized that writing down every word in grammatically correct and complete sentences wasn't necessary. I just needed to get down the most important words, or even just pieces of the most important words. This was plenty enough to commit the important fact to memory, and recall it later. It was just hard to allow myself to do it.
I'm wondering if anyone has ever studied and statistically analyzed the way most people abbreviate quick notes in a notebook, for later reference. I'm not talking on the level of letters and words, so much as on the level of lines, sentences, paragraphs, and pages. I wonder how much this varies based on the language used, and the personal preferences and ease of handwriting of the writer. There are two competing demands that I see, which place some universal constraints on how notes get abbreviated. The notes need to be quick to write, such that the writer can keep up with what's happening around him. But they also have to contain enough information that the writer can retrieve it unambiguously later on. I wouldn't be surprised if some general statements can be made about what words tend to be kept, and what words tend to be omitted, when people to take notes in a notebook. In particular, I imagine function words are often omitted, unless they're absolutely necessary for interpreting the note correctly.
Notebooks intended to be read by people other than the writer, without the presence of the writer, can't be as liberal with grammar and word omission as notebooks only intended for the writer's eyes. Still, I reckon they're much less dense with function words and complete sentences than published books.
Has anyone found any verbatim transcriptions of a lengthy notebook, in any language and from any point in history? I'm currently looking for some. If I find any that are usable, I'd be very interested to let Marco, Nablator, and other computational linguistics / statistics gurus here run their tests on them, and see how they match up to transcriptions of both the VMs and to published works in known languages. I wouldn't be surprised to find most notebooks sporting:
- A high type to token ratio
- Line as a functional unit effects
- Page and paragraph clustering of similar words
- Weak word order
- Ambiguous spacing and spelling
- Loose grammar and punctuation
- A slow but steady drift in the rules of abbreviation and overall style of notetaking, from the first page to the last
I fail to see how fast and "just meaningful enough" notetaking would naturally lead to high rates of exact reduplication, though.
If the VMs was someone's notebook, which I think is a reasonable idea given the crudeness of its images and layout (Fisk, 2017), then a transcription of a long, old notebook in a known readable language, might be a good apples-to-apples comparison.
The bad news is, if the VMs really is a notebook, abbreviated in typical ways but written in a novel script and/or language, that does not give me confidence in our ability to decode it. To anyone who has ever borrowed someone else's class notebook, and had to call the owner to make sense of a lot of the notes, I don't think this needs much explanation. This is especially true if the ways that notetakers condense language tends to vary a lot based on the writer, language, and subject matter, and few generalizations about this condensation process can be made.
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| [split] St John's College MS. 18 |
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Posted by: DONJCH - 19-02-2021, 08:13 AM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (14)
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There is a really interesting one on P50 of this collection by Don Hoffman
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Roland of Lisbon St Johns College Oxford MS18 Reductiorum Physiognomie
I was surprised not to see this one on a search of Voynich Ninja, it MUST have been discussed before!
Seems to be naked male "nymphs" representing 12 constellations and 7 planets.
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| [split] Nude figures wearing crowns |
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Posted by: CaryR - 18-02-2021, 02:41 AM - Forum: Imagery
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It's more specific than the broad topic of this thread, but I was wondering about the prevalence of nude figures wearing crowns. Is this something that shows up in particular types of manuscripts? And in what contexts?
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| Counting on stars |
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Posted by: R. Sale - 17-02-2021, 09:45 PM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (12)
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If it is accepted that VMs Virgo is a combination of Christian and classical influences, then it would fit in with the trends toward the form of ideological syncretism that occurred in the 15th C.
The star in Virgo is Spica, and there's a story behind that too.
In the VMs, Virgo has a star inside its medallion. Which other VMs medallions have a star inside?
Unless I missed something, only two other VMs zodiac medallions have stars inside: Pisces has two stars and Scorpio has one. What is the reason for that?
The primary star in Scorpio is Aldebaran. But what are the two stars in Pisces - from a medieval perspective?
Based on pairing, first Pisces is a pair together. Then the others are a pair apart. Aldebaran is red and Spica is blue.
Many stars around the VMs medallions have been painted. Some are solid gold; others are fainter. All the way to where it's unclear if they have been painted or not. There are groups of stars with yellow centers and a few painted blue. And just one (?) with a couple touches of red.
Do these stars already have a thread?
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| Ave maris stella |
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Posted by: R. Sale - 16-02-2021, 08:01 PM - Forum: Imagery
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Tradition wins out again in the investigation of VMs Virgo. Starting with the suggestion that the VMs image contains certain diverse elements, in particular the crescent moon, that was more commonly associated with representations of the Virgin Mary, rather than the other Virgo representations of classical astrology, it implies that the VMs illustration is something of a combination or fusion of classical and more subtle Christian elements.
But what about the "star on a string" that is found in the VMs Virgo medallion? The moon connection with Mary can be verified in numerous illustrations, but what about the star? Is there one good example of Virgo with a star?
Perhaps, then, the source of the star is not in an illustration. Perhaps the star has a different source - and that source was a song: 'Ave maris stella'
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An oldie, but a goodie, on the C-14 chronology jukebox. Clearly a part of relevant tradition, though not well-represented visually. It greatly strengthens the influence of Christian elements, but only *if* the investigator knows the tune! Not that I can sing, mind you, but there it is. And more importantly, *there it was*. And let's say that in some circles, at least, the connection was obvious - part of the rise of Mariology. How can the combined image be used in VMs Virgo and still be disguised? Would the VMs artist have tied stars to every nymph in the whole VMs Zodiac sequence just to disguise this connection? How's that song go again?
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| Pardis Motiee, "First Page of Voynich Manuscript: The Unheard Story" (LingBuzz) |
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Posted by: Stephen Carlson - 15-02-2021, 12:24 AM - Forum: News
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LingBuzz has a new preprint on the VM by Pardis Motiee: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
Here is the abstract:
Quote:The Voynich manuscript is an old illustrated book, hand-written in an unknown writing system. Even though it is studied by many, the book still closed its secrets. The drawings suggest that the manuscript is an herbal book and it may contain valuable information thus decoding it may increase human knowledge. This study has presented, a decipherment for Voynich manuscript and examines if it conveys any meanings. It states that, Voynich is written in codes and in fact there are hidden text with meanings in a natural language. The final results demonstrated the existence of words in sentence structure. Furthermore, it gives an insight into the first lines, which is a description of an itinerary like story; the mysterious book speaks of a person named Homer Jattari who passes a long distance from Pars to Parete, in search of amazing attars. The finding will prove the book to be a code and not a hoax.
The article contends that the VM can be decoded into a form of Persian, which I am not able to evaluate.
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| Greatest unexpected clues about VMS? |
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Posted by: Pythagoras - 13-02-2021, 06:16 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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What are the clues/hints/part of the VMS that struck you as completely unexpected?
Perhaps things that are even against what youd expect to find in the time period or against your own preconceptions about the VMS?
Or maybe they coincide with your ideas but this clue was still unexpected?
My greatest unexpected hint is in the middle of the book, hidden under plane sight.
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| [split] Palaeography of f116v |
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Posted by: Aga Tentakulus - 12-02-2021, 06:27 AM - Forum: Marginalia
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I wanted to ask, have the linguists ever provided a description or a reasonable explanation about the texts on page 116? I would like to read about it.
Especially the Latin part. I understand the German part myself.
The meaning and translation should not be a problem for a linguist. And while he's at it, he could also contribute something about the origin.
That shouldn't be a problem, after all, it's your profession.
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| Thread for all discussion about "genuine/meaningless/fake" etc |
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Posted by: ReneZ - 11-02-2021, 12:31 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (57)
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EDIT KG: this thread was split from here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
As I wrote in another thread, I don't think it is a good idea to place people in camps like "believing the text is meaningful" and the opposite. This is always too simplistic, and it provides a tendency toward ad hominem argumentation.
At the very least, there will always be a 'neutral camp'. There are many people (myself included) who are still waiting for more evidence before being willing to make up their minds either way. Yet again, inside this 'camp', people may still have a tendency to prefer one way or the other.
I have not seen any conclusive evidence for either viewpoint. Bowern and Lindemann state their opinions, and so do Timm and Schinner on the other side. I cannot see much of a difference between the level of confidence between the two cases, nor on the strength of the evidence to support this confidence. In general, I would say that Bowern and Lindemann phrase their statement slightly more carefully.
The auto-copy theory does not equate with meaningless text. As I have made very clear in the past, I cannot see how the Voynich MS text can be the result of such a process. However, it can still be a meaningless text.
Most importantly, for me, is that it is not such a black-and-white question at all. I don't agree with the statement: "There exist exactly two possibilities: either the Voynich Manuscript contains linguistically meaningful information, or not."
It is not difficult to imagine how the text could be meaningful, with some amount of meaningless padding. I don't even want to begin guessing what could be possible ratios between the two.
There are clear suggestions of meaningful content and there are clear suggestions of meaningless behaviour in the MS. The "one theory that explains it all" is still missing.
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