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| VadSlg Ms. 391 |
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Posted by: Anton - 10-10-2020, 01:06 AM - Forum: Codicology and Paleography
- Replies (5)
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One more interesting manuscript recently digitized, with many charts.
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Note the swapped T-O map in 2r.
Note also the chart in 20r where almost every label starts with "p" (I presume, the abbreviation for "per"), which somewhat reinforces my idea of Voynich label prefixes as operators.
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| Herbier de Moudon (Lausanne IS 3005) |
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Posted by: Anton - 10-10-2020, 12:42 AM - Forum: Codicology and Paleography
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This You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in French language attracted my attention, because it features plant descriptions in what appears to be a highly structured way, with many paragraphs starting in the same fashion with "pom" (?) or the "p a" (?) abbreviation.
Maybe it deserves a closer look.
All literature on this MS that I was able to find in Google search is in French, which is a language I did not master.
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| removing second "rhyming" vords from ms text to find meaning? |
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Posted by: geoffreycaveney - 09-10-2020, 03:05 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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As I was working on some difficult issues in my own efforts to interpret a passage of the Voynich ms text according to my own hypothesis, an idea has occurred to me:
The seemingly nonsensical repetition of very similar looking vords is a well-known feature of the ms text. Well, what if we treated the second and following vords of any apparent "rhyming" vord sequence as nonsensical, and only assigned meaning to the first vord in any such sequence?
By "rhyming" I mean that in a sequence of consecutive vords, each vord ends with the same two glyphs. For example a couple of such sequences that I came across include [dal shal] and [char sar].
I wonder what the statistical analysis of the Voynich ms text would look like, if we simply removed the second and following vords of all such sequences?
Rhyming a meaningful word with a following nonsense word/syllable is a rather common feature of nursery rhymes and similar material. In English for example, such phrases abound: In the phrase "holy moly", the first word has meaning, and the second word is a nonsensical rhyming word.
It is possible that further refinements of this idea may be necessary: For example, the first line of f75r [kchedy kary] [okeey qokar shy kchedy qotar shedy] has multiple "rhyming" vords and phrases, but not any two of them consecutively. But for an initial investigation, the simple method of removing rhyming vords in consecutive sequences should be a good start, and the rule is clear and explicit for the purpose of statistical analysis.
Geoffrey
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| Battle of Agincourt Zodiac mirrors f67r2 October 25, 1415 |
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Posted by: Voynichgibberish - 09-10-2020, 05:05 AM - Forum: Astrology & Astronomy
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Towards the pursuit of finding meaning with the Voynich Manuscript as we are all here for. Lately I have gone over the possibility regarding how the Voynich was copied from an original Latin work, perhaps from a traveling doctor. The Doctor sought to conceal the VMS with meaningless text, however he held on to a separate list like a dictionary.
I brain stormed for a few days thinking about provenance, Author type, geography and where in the VMS I could possibly find a possible clue. Folio 67r2 does look like a Zodiac, so I thought would it be about an a big event or for a persons horoscope. Since f67r2 was surrounded by waning 3/4 moons I figured it was for a big event. The planets match up very well with the Zodiac presentation I provided. Also, if one studies the Voynich you will know that in the horoscope series, it starts with Pisces with f70v1 and ends with Sagittarius as f73v! For reasons I don't understand Sagittarius leans in the 1st house of the Zodiac and I think You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. it might have a connection to f67r2. Anyway I determined that by the waning 3/4 moons and by the planets alignments to the inner circle words which might be planets for f67r2 that this represented The Battle of Agincourt on October 25, 1415 and I speculate a Doctor drew this up at 8 am three hours before the battle sprung into action.
To further my investigation I will need access if anyone has 15th century Zodiac type horoscopes in Latin, I need to compile a Zipf list of anywhere from 1000 to 10,000 words to try and compare it to f67r2 to try and see I can fetter out any translation from what I call VMS gibberish.
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Code: Year New Moon First Quarter Full Moon Last Quarter
1415 Jan 3 05:44
Jan 11 06:37 Jan 18 07:57 Jan 25 06:36 Feb 2 03:16
Feb 9 20:40 Feb 16 15:24 Feb 23 21:13 Mar 3 23:39
Mar 11 07:46 Mar 17 23:11 Mar 25 12:36 Apr 2 17:05
Apr 9 16:34 Apr 16 08:03 Apr 24 04:25 May 2 06:38
May 9 00:03 May 15 18:35 May 23 20:10 May 31 16:28
Jun 7 07:12 T Jun 14 07:13 Jun 22 11:07 p Jun 29 23:27
Jul 6 14:52 Jul 13 22:17 Jul 22 00:39 Jul 29 04:54
Aug 4 23:53 Aug 12 15:41 Aug 20 12:38 Aug 27 10:13
Sep 3 11:05 Sep 11 10:40 Sep 18 23:28 Sep 25 16:40
Oct 3 01:11 Oct 11 05:49 Oct 18 09:52 Oct 25 01:24
Nov 1 18:24 Nov 9 23:33 Nov 16 20:28 Nov 23 13:13
Dec 1 13:53 A Dec 9 14:43 Dec 16 07:25 n Dec 23 04:30
Dec 31 09:43
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| folk song lyric texts & entropy statistics |
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Posted by: geoffreycaveney - 05-10-2020, 04:00 AM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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Over in the Slavic VCI and West Slavic thread I have been posting some Sorbian text, "encryption" of it into Voynich EVA transcription, and "decryption" back into my Slavic VCI interpretation of the script. Interested readers can check out my latest posts in that thread for more information.
As part of my investigation into this theory, I have researched some Sorbian folk song lyrics, since it occurs to me that folk songs may preserve the style of language that may be represented in the Voynich manuscript more so than other types of literary prose or poetry texts. Prose and even poetry have changed drastically in style between the late medieval period and recent centuries; folk song lyrics have probably changed much less over the centuries. Folk song lyrics also tend to be more repetitive, which fits the observed patterns and structures of the Voynich ms text.
I strongly suspect that most folk song lyrics have rather lower entropy and conditional entropy statistics than most literary prose and poetry texts. This lower conditional entropy is in line with the statistical analysis of the Voynich ms text. (Of course, additional reduction/compression of the entropy statistics by means of a verbose cipher analysis of the Voynich script and text, possibly with a null character as well, as recently analyzed by Koen and Marco, will be necessary to align Voynich ms statistics with any actual natural language text statistics.)
As one example, "Palenc palenc" is a Sorbian folk song. Palenc is a Sorbian hard liquor or spirit. You may watch and listen to a video of Sorbs singing this folk song You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. You may read the text of the lyrics of this folk song You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
Here is the first verse of "Palenc palenc":
"Palenc, palenc, tón dyrbi pity być!
Hdyž ja nimam palenca,
to mi boli wutroba.
Palenc, palenc, tón dyrbi pity być!"
Employing my Slavic VCI interpretation of the Voynich script, I can render the lyrics of this verse into the standard Voynich EVA transcription as follows:
[par qokedy tar qokedy kaiin qoky okchy s otchy tchy kchy otchy dy]
[ody okchody chy qokchy qoty qoty tar qokedy]
[kaiin qotchy otaiin or chy or or ky saiin oty]
[tar qokedy tar qokedy kaiin qoky okchy s otchy tchy kchy otchy dy]
I can then decipher this text back into my Slavic VCI reading of the script as follows:
<Pal nec# pal nec# to n# di# r bi# pi# ti# bi# c#>
<h# diž# j# ni# m# m# pal nec#>
<to mi# bo w i# w u t# ro b#>
<pal nec# pal nec# to n# di# r bi# pi# ti# bi# c#>
I observe that it would not be difficult for a Sorbian speaker to recognize the folk song lyrics in the latter Slavic VCI reading, despite its somewhat different form.
I also observe that the Voynich EVA version of these lyrics above seems quite in the repetitive style and spirit of the Voynich ms text as we know it.
Geoffrey
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| Most Common Use of Nulls in 15th Century Cipher Text |
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Posted by: MichelleL11 - 03-10-2020, 07:53 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (18)
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Here are the assumptions -- that are admittedly far, far from having proof to support them:
1) The VM is a ciphered text, with an actual, widespread natural language plaintext underlying it
2) Every use of EVA "y" within the text is a null (that is, that glyph has has no underlying corresponding character (or characters) in the plaintext that it is represented by) -- basically, someone who is decoding the VM message should IGNORE that character
Given these two assumptions, I wanted to examine Koen's work on removing EVA y (after the bigram alterations). The result he found was that entropy is signficantly increased (e.g. there is significantly more disorder).
Now if we use the traditional definition of a null -- that is, that symbol in the cipher "does not care what other symbols it sits next to" it is clear that EVA "y" is not behaving how a traditional null is defined.
I was wondering about the traditional use of nulls at the time of the VM carbon dating.
Does anyone have any insight into the use of nulls in 15th Century ciphers? That is, are we getting "anachronistic" with some sort of non-traditional null. By non-traditional null I mean, after every symbol (or pair of symbols) that stand for plaintext letter X, add a null, rather than "random" scattering.
I am finding it hard to imagine the motivation for a"non-traditional" null other than in relation to confounding some sort of frequency analysis, which I understand is a further anachronism. But if someone can come up with an alternative, I would be very interested in hearing about it.
Well -- I guess I have now answered my own question, as I suppose it could be hypothesized that nulls do not occur at the glyph level, but instead at the whole word level -- and if those null words were highly ordered, removal of a portion (like the "y"s only) could have this effect on entropy, even if the nulls were actually used in a "traditional" sense, as defined above.
In any case, would be interested in any other thoughts along these lines or just some comment on how varied the use of nulls were at the time and thanks for thinking about it!
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| qo and the 15.5% factor |
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Posted by: Voynichgibberish - 03-10-2020, 02:35 AM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (10)
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How rare or not is it for a text of about 34,000 vords or words to have a prefix like You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which is present for about 15.5% of a corpus? If any of our researchers were able to scan several different languages like Latin, German, English and lastly Italian would it be common to find a prefix which stands out with such a large foot print in a text like You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.? To be fair if one were to study the statistics for the other various languages they should use only 34,000 words from that text for each language. I know I'm being a bit bias for the language assumptions to test against, however the VMS was found in Italy so I presume if its not gibberish or it is gibberish in the Zipf presentation of my other thread that it is most likely Latin. However, that being said, if the Author just invented vords and attached them to Latin words maybe the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. phenomenon is of that reason. Yet if we do a study and this is common then we all learn that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is fine . Here I am asking again for anyone who has knowledge regarding about how to return or print just the first two characters from words of a text file via python and get a count for those token pairs. As I would like to test this myself, although I'm just a beginner in python, I don't know how to write the code.
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| What are labels? |
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Posted by: -JKP- - 01-10-2020, 11:16 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (47)
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I was going to post in the "word order" thread and then realized this topic needs a thread of its own.
What are labels?
For example, there are numerous pieces of text between nymphs on the zodiac-figure folios.
- On 57v are there labels? Can the one token outside the circles be considered a label? Are the tokens inside the inner circle labels?
- Is the short piece of text on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. a label?
- Are the tokens in the left column of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. labels? Does the text at the bottom of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. include labels?
- Are there labels in the rings or spokes of the cosmo folios? (f67 to f70r)?
- On f72, can we consider the text within the lines to be labels or something else? Are the tokens between nymphs labels?
- Are the short bits on the lower left of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. labels? What about the single chars on the top right?
- Are the tokens at the top of f77r f77v f78r and f80r labels? Why does You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. not have similar labels?
- Is the short text on the bottom left of 81v a label or labels?
- Is the text within the rainbow on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. comprised of labels or is it only partly labels?
- Te text at the top right and the two stubby chunks on the lower right of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are they labels?
- Are there parts of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that are labels?
- Are there any labels on f85r4 (moon circle) or f86r2?
- What about the rosettes folio f85v ? Are some labels and some not?
It's difficult to do computational attacks or to generalize about labels without defining which pieces of text are included and which are not (and the reasons for the choice).
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