VMs (f80v) critter identified - Printable Version

VMs (f80v) critter identified - Printable Version

+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Imagery (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-43.html)
+--- Thread: VMs (f80v) critter identified (/thread-2852.html)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

VMs (f80v) critter identified - R. Sale - 16-07-2019

The “Apocalypse of S Jean” aka BNF Fr. 13096 is dated to 1313.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

A folio from this manuscript was recently posted in J.K. Petersen’s blog discussing the possibility that the elusive VMs (f80v) critter was related to medieval images of the Agnus Dei.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

In a typical representation, the Lamb of God usually supports a cross and/or flag. Obviously the VMs critter does neither and the same is true in the Apocalypse illustration. There we see a lamb on an altar. It is enclosed in a vesical piscis and framed by a cloud-band, which mark its divinity. And below this, if one looks closely, there are a number of small red markings, surely intended to represent the Blood of the Lamb. After all, it is an apocalypse.

Going beyond the specific appearance of the Apocalypse image, there is a simple structure that is basic to this part of the illustration. The structure is a sequence of three parts: the lamb, the cosmic boundary, and the droplets. Knowing this structure, the VMs critter is easily unmasked and clearly identified. Granted that the critter by itself has not been that easy to discover. Various possibilities, including a sheep, have been suggested. The identification is based on the complete structure, not on the appearance.

The recovery of heraldic terminology informs a direct etymological connection between ‘gewolkt’ lines and Wolkenbands. The same substitution of a nebuly line for a cloud-band is seen in the VMs cosmos. While the VMs artist’s best representation of a scallop-shell cloud-band is found in the Central Rosette. And, of course, the nature of the VMs droplets remains ambiguous, but at least they exist as potential droplets, making the same three-part structure as the Apocalypse illustration. And in some sense, it really doesn’t matter how poorly, or how diversely, or how ambiguously the individual parts of the structure are represented, as long as the structure is maintained, and there is some way for the parts to be properly interpreted, despite their appearance, then these are examples of the same structure.

As a lamb or sheep, the form of the VMs critter has been compared with that of the ram seen in the image of the Order of the Golden Fleece, begun by Philip the Good in Burgundy in 1429. Apparently the “Apocalypse of S Jean” was in the library of Philip the Good as well. Speculation must allow that someone of that era could have known the structure of the apocalypse image and substituted a reversed representation of the Burgundian fleece in place of the lamb while retaining the other parts. Not only that, if this occurred in the 1430s, it is still within the parchment dates.

RE: VMs (f80v) critter identified - Linda - 17-07-2019

I kind of like it, although i retain my own interpretation. You have said most of this before, i think what is newly said is that Philip the Good had this particular book in his library. Although it is an interesting coincidence, it doesn't prove anything.

However i often come across imagery in the vms that seems to do double or triple duty and this could be one of those.

The apocalyptic nature falls in line with my interpretation. the blood could alternatively denote waters turned red, or they could be dripping molten rock. The Christianity connection could denote political issues along with the religious. There is also the marriage of the lamb connection with the juxtaposition of rings in connection with the related imagery you have mentioned, the vesica piscus doesnt seem to be there but i think they might have snuck it onto You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in the nymph standing in for Rome, in the crook of her arm

Also, the golden fleece conjures up its own backstory, both as myth and actual usage to mine gold in mountain streams.
The reference to the Order itself might bring in the regions from Flanders to Switzerland.

However, i see some problems. For instance the Order of the Golden Fleece icon looks like, a) a feece, which is to say that it looks dead, devoid of body, a skin only; and b) a sheep, curly horns and a long fat tail that hangs straight down.

The vms body seems to be the main thing to have been drawn, and it does not really call to mind a fleece. Both goats and sheep can have different horns, but goats generally have short tails they hold upwards, or out, in the case of the vms animal. It looks more like a goat than a sheep, i think. That is why my preferential identification is Capra ibex, an animal that lives only in the range of the Alps, which is ultimately what is portrayed, in my interpretation. But, it is drawn ambiguously, and therefore i could see this alternative lamb possibility.

Agnus dei also has a particular stance. The vms stance is not it.

RE: VMs (f80v) critter identified - -JKP- - 17-07-2019

This is a goldwork version of Agnus Dei from needlenthread.com. Only the wealthiest (or those to whom wealth was bequeathed) could afford goldwork. It was, essentially, relief sculpture with thread, and required much time and skill:

[Image: AgnusDeiGoldwork.jpg]

This is Agnus Dei prone. The cloth examples are vestments:

[Image: AgnusDeiProne.png]

RE: VMs (f80v) critter identified - -JKP- - 17-07-2019

When I blogged about the VMS curled-up critter, I didn't post all my research because there are many loose ends.

For example, I couldn't find the source of numerous images (like a stained glass image of a lamb curled up like a cat with paw-like hooves) that MIGHT be from a cathedral in France, but I'm not sure.

Also, I was HOPING to figure out when the prone-position Agnus Dei came on the scene, but it hasn't been easy. I am still looking. It sometimes takes years to chase down a detail like this.

Here are two more examples of prone lambs, one painted on a pillar, the other carved out of wood:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

There is one in Notre Dame de Bellecombe.

This one is not prone, but it has streams of water and a stream of blood. Streams of water coming out of the base is a very old pagan theme:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

I don't have enough examples to know for sure, but the earlier curled up or prone lambs SEEM to be more common in France:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

However, I found this German example in a drawing style similar to the VMS in Donaueschingen 437 from the later 15th century:

[Image: AriesLikeLamb.png]

so they are not all from France.

I don't know the earliest dates of sleeping/prone examples yet. I do know it's hard to find them earlier than c. 1450.

The sacrificial lamb is much older.

[P.S., since the last forum update, the editor is adding a lot of extra carriage returns and I can't delete them even in the code editor.]

RE: VMs (f80v) critter identified - Linda - 18-07-2019

(17-07-2019, 12:19 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This is Agnus Dei prone. The cloth examples are vestments:

Prone isn't the stance either, though, is it. It looks reastful, peaceful, whereas the vms stance seems to me more of an actively defensive one.

However the vms creature only seems to have three legs. Is it a comment on the missing bent leg and flag, or is it a leg to stand on that is missing? Could it be related to the Empire vs Papal authority issues of the times?

The inclusion of other icons such as the St. George's cross flag reminds me alternately of Genoa and Milan, both of which are located in the area of the drawing, if it is of the Alps and the Ligurian shore.

It also pulls in centuries worth of history on the crusades, etc. The seven seals bring the apocalypse back into it, too. Could it be about the Ottoman-Venetian wars that had lately started? The end of an age?

Often the standing version had its head turned backwards, could the vms stance be a commentary on that idea, with an upsidedown twist?

[Image: 630632961.jpg]

RE: VMs (f80v) critter identified - -JKP- - 18-07-2019

The VMS illustrator had limited drawing skills and drew according to formulas, which means that as soon as the person tried to draw something in another position (one not easily explained as a formula), the anatomy was a mess. This person had difficulty visualizing the underlying anatomy and in three dimensions. You can see it in the animals and many of the nymphs.

The joints are all badly drawn and sometimes even drawn in reverse (as in some of the zodiac-figure animals).

Here is the stained glass Agnus Dei I mentioned in the previous post. I was unable to find a location or date for this (I suspect France and it's probably later than 15th century, but I don't know for sure). It is curled up like a sleeping cat and has paw-like hooves:

[Image: stained-glass-645544_960_720.jpg]

[Image: stained-glass-645544_960_720.jpg]

The VMS critter's "defensive position" might be nothing more than bad drawing skills. It might even represent a dead animal (like a sacrificial lamb or a golden fleece).

RE: VMs (f80v) critter identified - nablator - 18-07-2019

(18-07-2019, 04:26 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Here is the stained glass Agnus Dei I mentioned in the previous post. I was unable to find a location or date for this (I suspect France and it's probably later than 15th century, but I don't know for sure).

Little dog.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

RE: VMs (f80v) critter identified - Koen G - 18-07-2019

Canis Dei?

The more people say about this thing, the more it becomes clear that we have no clue - as opposed to what the title of this thread claims.

RE: VMs (f80v) critter identified - -JKP- - 18-07-2019

(18-07-2019, 08:20 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(18-07-2019, 04:26 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Here is the stained glass Agnus Dei I mentioned in the previous post. I was unable to find a location or date for this (I suspect France and it's probably later than 15th century, but I don't know for sure).
Little dog.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

You found it, Nablator, thank you! I searched quite a while for the original. It is identified in many places as Agnus Dei and since many of the sheep drawings are really bad, I took them at their word.

RE: VMs (f80v) critter identified - Linda - 18-07-2019

I think the reason we are not finding exact matches has less to do with drawing skill and more to do with the fact that the artist was not a copyist at all, but drew things in new ways, either more realistically than had thus far been done traditionally, or full of mnemonic details not usually employed in such ways.

The ambiguity is likely purposeful, an obfuscation, as well as part of the mnemonic devices embodied in it. Perhaps the parable of the sheep and the goats is referred to. Sheep to the right hand, to be saved, goats to the left.? Possibly reversed, depending on where you are viewing from, north or south.

However, the result is so ambiguous that without context you end up with armadillos and pangolins in the mix.

To me this is because of the scale-like nature of the body, but i believe this is a non-biological scale mnemonic that refers to mountains. The curve of the stance matches that of the alps, the legs are additional features thereof. The previous page leads us there by travelling up the Spanish, French, and Ligurian coasts to Genoa, then following a river up to Lake Garda, with a couple other lakes shown. This page shows other lakes around the alps, including Constance. Within this context the scales work to define the greater area discussed. Lake Garda would be located in the space between the face and the foreleg.

I could see Agnus dei being employed as a vague historical mnemonic. I could see the ibex as a visual cue linked to the alps themselves. Armadillos dont fit, but i have thought the Catalan Atlas mountains to look like pangolin scales, although the vms ones more resemble the Italian portolan mountain scale tradition.