| Welcome, Guest |
You have to register before you can post on our site.
|
| Online Users |
There are currently 188 online users.
» 3 Member(s) | 182 Guest(s)
Applebot, Bing, Google, paquito
|
|
|
| Log Man... |
|
Posted by: -JKP- - 11-08-2019, 01:23 AM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (19)
|
 |
I only have five minutes and then I have to get to a meeting, so this has to be quick, but I thought it might be worth a dedicated thread...
I've never been able to figure out this guy on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. :
LogManf79r.png (Size: 652.78 KB / Downloads: 328)
One of the things I've seen in medieval manuscripts that might be similar to this image is engineers using stakes and logs to build fording aids so soldiers or travelers can get across rough streams by sidling along the log and using it to grasp and balance.
But... since we're also looking at Christian-themed possibilities in the last few threads, I thought I would add this. Not all images of the crucifixion have the same kinds of crosses. I've seen several different arrangements of the two thieves with their arms behind their backs or above the logs as in this example. It's not exactly like the VMS pic, and there's only one log man in the VMS, but hey, if we are exploring ideas, might as well post it to get the thread doing...
ThievesOr6796.png (Size: 601.07 KB / Downloads: 325)
CrucifixLog.png (Size: 313.52 KB / Downloads: 323)
7th century Coptic crucifixion BL Or 6796; Dortmund c. 1475 by Derick Baegert (public domain)
VauxThief.png (Size: 204.62 KB / Downloads: 325)
Vaux Passional, National Library of Wales Penarth MS 482D, c. 1503
No, it's not quite the same arrangement, I offer it simply as food for thought and discussion.
|
|
|
| Dukes of Burgundy: Library |
|
Posted by: R. Sale - 11-08-2019, 12:56 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- No Replies
|
|
Since the VMs critter of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is an interesting comparison with the image from the "Apocalypse of S. Jean" (1313, Liege). And since the Apocalypse text was in the library of Phillip the Good, Duke of Burgundy (d. 1467), perhaps it will help to know more about the library.
So far, it's a work in progress. Any help appreciated.
Some info here:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
From this source, most of the books in the library of Philip the Good were commissioned after 1445. The Apocalypse was created in 1313.
Philip the Bold (1342-1404), grandfather of Philip the Good, was also a bibliophile, as was Margaret of Flanders, the wife of Philip the Bold, and she brought with her the book collection of the counts of Flanders. On the basis of chronology and geography, this may be a better source for how the 1313 Apocalypse entered the collection.
It would also be interesting to know which texts by Nicole Oresme were in the Burgundian collection.
|
|
|
|
| Koen's Arma Christi theory - discussion of f34v (coins) |
|
Posted by: davidjackson - 09-08-2019, 05:01 PM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (31)
|
 |
So this is a very "way out" theory that just occurred to me whilst looking at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which in Koen's arma christi theory may represent the 30 pieces of silver.
Yes, there are only 29 coins in this depiction. Koen suggests that maths may not be part of the illustrators talent set. We put this to one side for a moment.
The imagery is unusual, as we have the very strong red roots underneath the plant, drawn around a hole in the parchment, which appear to be sprouting a wheat-like plant:
![[Image: image.jpg?q=f34v-254-1318-1248-637]](https://voynich.ninja/extractor/image.jpg?q=f34v-254-1318-1248-637)
And above we have some tessellated plant heads
![[Image: image.jpg?q=f34v-603-659-759-358]](https://voynich.ninja/extractor/image.jpg?q=f34v-603-659-759-358)
Now, in Christian tradition, the 30 pieces of silver were used to buy Potter's field or You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., "the field of blood" a piece of land later used by the synogogue as a cemetery for non-Jews. Judas of Iscariot is reputed to have died there:
Quote:According to the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) Judas "acquired a field with the reward of his unjust deed, and falling headfirst he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out. This became known to all who lived in Jerusalem, so that in their own language they called that field Hakeldama, that is, 'Field of Blood.'"
Luke repeats this story: he [Judas] fell dead head long and his heart burst and his intestines spilt out.
Now, it is not beyond the realms of possibility to imagine that we are looking at the fields of blood, around a hole in the parchment which represents the heart of Judas, which had exploded in the horror of what he had done to Jesus.
We now come to the thistle and wheat. Thistles and other common weeds amongst wheat are a typical Christian motif showing the effects of Satan and evil; the thistle makes the wheat unproductive, and is allowed to grow because of the farmer's neglect for his own care.
'Let thistles grow up to me instead of wheat, and thorns instead of barley' [Job 31:40].
So, if we assume these to be coins, then the roots, barley and thistles all join together in a Christian allegory: the return of the coins, the purchase of the fields of blood using this money and the effects of Satan upon the heart of Judas.
|
|
|
|
| The return of the "Voynich faked it" theory |
|
Posted by: ReneZ - 08-08-2019, 06:21 PM - Forum: Provenance & history
- Replies (16)
|
 |
In recent weeks, the animal on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was a 'hot topic' on a large number of Voynich blogs.
In this forum the discussion tends to concentrate on the possibility it is a ram or a lamb. In other places, the idea that it could be a armadillo figured prominently, with the suggestion that this would be a sign of a modern fake by Voynich.
More recently, at the blog of Rich Santacoloma the 'modern fake' topic was picked up again, with additional comments on the blog of Klaus Schmeh.
I don't really like to discuss this very much. The reason is that I had endless discussions about this on the Voynich mailing list, that led absolutely nowhere. Of all the people reading here, I think that at least David Jackson, Helmut Winkler and 'voynichbombe' saw all that. (It's a guess, sorry if I got it wrong).
Now I would not want people to be misled. The issue whether any object is a fake is far from trivial. Fakes exist and there have been surprising, even embarrassing cases. It is not a matter of 'belief' but a matter of close study and analysis.
At some point I decided to summarise the reasons that the Voynich MS is almost certainly a genuine late medieval manuscript at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . Rich devoted his last blog post to this page.
While it is not short, I would say it is quite 'condensed' and many things could have been written more expansively.
Also, whenever new information is available, I will update the page including this.
The page does not address the specific arguments of Rich. That is done at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .
I never made this second link known, simply because I don't particularly like to 'fuel the discussion'. However, it is there and, more than the first one, this page expresses my opinions.
What I want to say is, that these pages explain my views and the reason why I think that the Voynich MS is a genuine late medieval document, beyond reasonable doubt.
Of course, anyone can form their own opinion. As I have written before, here and elsewhere, there will always be people who believe, or are convinced that the MS is a modern fake by Voynich.
So be it.
There are many theories about the Voynich MS, and their credibility ranges from possible, through unlikely, to really not sensible. For me, this one is at the far end of the spectrum.
|
|
|
|
| The Arma Christi [General discussion] |
|
Posted by: -JKP- - 06-08-2019, 09:13 PM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (170)
|
|
Koen introduced the Arma Christi in relation to the mandorla-shaped images of wounds, and the interesting double-helix style of rope on the pole (see Oak and Ivy thread).
I thought I would split off a general discussion of the Arma Christi because there are some very interesting additional features associated with this imagery.
Apparently Arma Christi images were not simply for recording and teaching religious history. The Arma Christi had a particular role as a talismanic concept.
It provided protection for those carrying it in case they should die without having been confessed. Thus, the portable versions will often include a long list of names of Christ and the commonly added crosses between each name (think 116v in the VMS, and medieval charms in general).
Perhaps by association (since death was a real possibility for any medieval woman who was about to give birth), it was also supposed to provide protection for childbearing.
I can imagine it might be very helpful for someone going into battle since death loomed on the battlefield and priests weren't always available to give everyone last rites.
Here's another Arma Christi image courtesy of Zde, Wikimedia, from the Passional of Abbess Kunigunde [Prague, c. 1320]:
![[Image: Passional_of_Abbess_Kunigunde%2C_exh._Be...150623.jpg]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Passional_of_Abbess_Kunigunde%2C_exh._Benedictines_NG_Prague%2C_150623.jpg)
I doesn't have the helical ropes (they are spiral-twining), but note the tongs/forceps near the bottom. It's not the same shape as the "forceps" tool in the VMS, but the VMS forceps has always reminded me of childbirth, but I don't know when they actually started using forceps to birth babies (might not be until the 19th or 20th centuries).
The VMS "forceps" is not the right shape to be a compass (the tines are curved), but it might be an instrument for measuring. I think I MIGHT have seen a medieval drawing of forceps used in a caesarian section, but I'm not sure if I'm remembering it correctly. Maybe it's a compass, but drawn in an odd way.
|
|
|
|
| Phonetic Kabbalistic interpretations |
|
Posted by: Monica Yokubinas - 04-08-2019, 06:20 PM - Forum: Codicology and Paleography
- No Replies
|
|
Here is a page and quote showing the phonetic, Kabbalistic interpretations and comparisons of 3 famous spell bowls. Quite an interesting difference in lettering and wording; all with the same meaning.
"We mark how magical terms which once had a meaning become blurred and obscured at the hands of generations of sorcerers and coyists, until sense becomes nonsense, or simple word or phrase receives a kabbalistic interpretations."
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
opps, forgot to say it is from the same study 'Aramaic Incantation Texts from Nippur' by James A. Montgomery 1913
|
|
|
|
| The unexpected confirmation |
|
Posted by: ReneZ - 04-08-2019, 04:35 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (8)
|
|
Many people, past and present, have been greatly interested in finding explanations or translations of the text of the Voynich MS. In no few cases, these people were actually quite convinced that they were on the right track.
One of the reasons why they were so convinced may be (have been) what I would call the 'unexpected confirmation'.
Basically it means that one unexpectedly learns about something that one did not know before, but would seem to confirm what one has been thinking. This is better explained with a few examples.
Probably the best known is Newbold. He was translating the text of one of the pages of the MS, and came up with: "in a concave mirror I saw a star in the form of a snail ... between the navel of Pegasus, the girdle of Andromeda and the head of Cassiopeia" (text from Kahn: the Codebreakers). This is where the Andromeda galaxy is found, and Newbold stated that he did not know of that before. It seemed like the perfect confirmation that he was right.
A second example is given by Stephen Bax. When he was considering that the plant on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. could be Hellebore, and he transcribed the word that should give the name, he came up with Ka(e)ur. Searching the web, he found that Hellebore was called "Kaur" in Kashmir. This is the sort of striking discovery that seemed to be beyond coincidence.
I have often wondered if the same thing did not happed to Wilfrid Voynich. His complete conviction that the Voynich MS was a Roger Bacon work was not even completely understood by ELV and Anne Nill after his death.
But what if he had indeed formed the idea of (Albertus Magnus or) Roger Bacon, and only after that saw the name of Bacon in the Marci letter? This would be such a case of unexpected confirmation. However, this is clearly speculation and we may not know for sure. (Even though he wrote that this was the order of events in his 1921 paper, we may be skeptical about it).
I don't doubt that such striking confirmation must be happening on some scale to many people working on theories, and it will be hard to be truly critical whether a confirmation is real, or could simply be a coincidence.
|
|
|
|
| Online harassment |
|
Posted by: LisaFaginDavis - 26-07-2019, 08:16 PM - Forum: News
- Replies (11)
|
 |
Hi, everyone,
I just wanted to let you all know that I received a very crude, threatening, and anti-Semitic message last week from a fake Facebook account (no photos, no friends, no messages, just the name "Tom Berenger", almost certainly a pseudonym) specifically referencing my public critiques of Cheshire's work. I reported the message and the account to Facebook and blocked the account. I have no idea who set up the account and sent the message, but I just wanted to let this community know that it happened. I know this is a place where everyone strives to be respectful and courteous, even in disagreement, something I know we all appreciate. I think we can all agree that such anonymous and ad feminam harassment is truly out of bounds.
- Lisa
|
|
|
|
|
)