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| The Issues with Nick Pelling's proposed DNA Gathering Analysis |
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Posted by: MichelleL11 - 02-04-2022, 11:02 PM - Forum: Physical material
- Replies (1)
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First, I want to say I completely support the utility of understanding the alpha state of the VM to whatever extent is possible. The obvious shuffling of the folio and quire order is a detriment to getting reliable results for many kinds of analysis that bridges these lengths, especially analysis of the text, and increased certainty of any kind would be useful.
You state that you have gotten some pushback on the suggested DNA gathering analysis. As much as I support biocodicology experiments to be done on the VM, it should be emphasized that the answers you are asking from the technology have not been successfully achieved to date.
These are the issues that remain. Note I am assuming that based on the ZooMS data gotten in 2014, all the folios are bovine parchment -- but given the small sample size, I admit this could be an incorrect assumption.
1. Keep in mind you are asking for individual differentiation of a large number of animal sources of the parchment from each other. There is a high likelihood these animals will be highly related to each other because of geographic constraints of animal husbandry and, secondarily, trade of the time. This greatly complicates the analysis. It is quite different to distinguish protein samples of different species from each other than DNA samples of different, highly related individuals from each other.
This requires either single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) or short tandem repeat (STR) analysis to get to the individual level. An analysis of this issue with modern herds estimates that it take at least 99 mapped SNPs that are different between individuals for a successful differentiation (see, Fernandez et al. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..) This requires a decent amount of intact DNA to do successfully. Obviously not an issue when you get your DNA through blood draws, but it is an issue when you are dealing with extracted DNA that is over 600 years old.
Campana et al. attempted STR analysis unsuccessfully You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -- granted this was 12 years ago, using standard DNA sequencing rather than next gen, but there hasn't been anyone that has tried it since. Their results indicated that none of the parchment sources were related to each other.
2. The eraser crumb sampling technique has proven decent for protein collection, but much less successful for DNA collection. The one publication that I am aware of that did both (and I have tried to find all related publications in my review) was Teasdale et al. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Although sufficient protein was obtained from all the bifolios that were attempted (65 samples) to identify species, only eight bifolios were attempted for DNA analysis ("large volume of eraser waste" was required) and only three of these eight had sufficient DNA integrity to do any kind of SNP analysis (e.g. about 4.6%). They saw "a trend" toward SNPs seen in modern North Europe breeds. There was no attempt to assign individual identity to these three samples. In fact, they saw a greater than expected differentiation between the samples, which they attributed to "the limited SNP recovery in these samples." This is precisely what would be expected with the VM samples, too.
Note that the most recent and most extensive project (Ruffini-Ronzani et al., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) didn't even attempt DNA analysis but just stuck with ZooMS. Note the new software that has been developed is only for protein, and not DNA analysis. The full data set was recently published and it appears that nothing along a DNA analysis was even tried. This could well be related to the much greater difficulty of getting sufficient intact DNA from this sampling approach.
3. In my opinion, this pinpoints the most significant issue with the proposed analysis -- the likelihood of getting useful data is relatively low.
If you get only a small amount of DNA results, there will be an inability to associate any individual result with any other individual result (you need a minimum of 99 mismatches to know you are looking at a different individual). In Teasdale, they were comparing the limited samples to a modern cow SNP collection (they were looking for geographic placement through SNP matches). With the proposed study, the comparisons will be looking for lack of matches between the samples. Given the numbers of Teasdale, only a fraction of the samples will have enough DNA to analyze at all, and then, you have to get lucky enough for those samples to have enough overlap to find 99 mismatches in order to distinguish.
4. Given this scenario, of a low number of samples with enough DNA, and scattered location of what intact DNA that has been sequenced (which will be unique for each sample), and the likely relationship of the cows to each other, the greatest likelihood of a result is that all the samples will appear related to each other (if you get decent overlap between the samples) OR alternatively, the amount of coverage will be so sparse, none of the samples will be related to each other, like what Campana et al. found. Both of these results are equally not useful.
Asking this kind of question really emphasizes the issues with (1) being hampered by having to use non-destructive collection; (2) how the data from DNA available degrades with time; and (3) the lack of comparative data for medieval era cow genomes.
So, I hate to be negative -- but I tend to agree that progress in DNA extraction from eraser crumbs, progress in analysis of highly fragmented DNA results (e.g. software development for the DNA part -- maybe needing artificial intelligence to bridge gaps), and further information about medieval cow genomes in general (e.g. more DNA samples from medieval parchment -- maybe using destructive sampling if there is "waste" parchment?) to build a decent SNP library is needed before the likelihood of getting useful data seems high enough to me to attempt the study.
Happy to answer questions about these thoughts.
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| Breaking Apr 1st news! MS 408 proves Blackadder actually existed! |
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Posted by: kckluge - 01-04-2022, 07:43 PM - Forum: News
- Replies (11)
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After a pleasant dinner earlier this week that including stimulating conversation with another long-time member of the Voynich manuscript research community I drifted off to sleep with thoughts of that vexing sphinx filling my head. I dreamt that I was looking at John Dee's scrying equipment in the British Museum. Gazing into his crystal orb I found myself standing in a mist-filled void containing a lectern with MS 408 on it. The book flipped open to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. [1], and as I examined the page the snake in the root of the left plant turned to fix me with its steely gaze, speaking as follows:
Though at first glance I seem mild snake,
T'would be a foolish error to make!
No garter snake, I! Don't void your bladder --
I am, in fact, the loathsome Adder!
While I seem brown, I fade, alack!
So know, in truth, my hue is BLACK!
Heed me well, though 'tis hard to imagine it,
For I am the glorious serpent Plantagenet!
The snake loomed larger, its jaws gaping, and I found myself falling into its ravenous maw. Waking bathed in sweat, I somehow knew I had been given the key to the Voynich manuscript.
Puzzled, I did a Google search for some sort of "black adder" or "blackadder". Buried among results for William Blackadder (executed for his role in the murder of Lord Darnley), St. Andrew Blackadder Parish Church, and every Thursday being Curry Night at The Blackadder Hotel Bar & Restaurant [1], I found references to a BBC historical drama involving a fringe theory regarding the final years of the Plantagenet dynasty [2]. A thrilling dramatization that features all the historical accuracy that viewers of _I, Claudius_ had come to expect [3] from the Beeb, it follows the adventures of the Black Adder (Prince Edmumd, younger son of Richard IV (sic!)), and his associates Baldrick and Lord Percy Percy.
I pondered on how to use this information to solve the mystery of the text, when it hit me – I could use names as cribs! Let Feely search in vain for his "ovaries"; let Brumbaugh spice his theory with "pepper" and "paprika"; with the aid of "Black Adder" and "Baldrick", I had a cunning plan. I would use the pattern of common letters in the two names to find them in the cipher text in much the same way that Champollion used the shared letters in “Ptolemy” and “Cleopatra” to make an initial break into reading Egyptian hieroglyphs [5].
Initially I lined the names up as follows, with each unique letter assigned a number:
B L A C K A D D E R
1 2 3 4 5 3 6 6 7 8
B A L D R I C K
1 3 2 6 8 9 4 5
After failing to find appropriate matches to those patterns of letters, I reconsidered my approach. S. Reddy & K. Knight say, "The similarity with devoweled scripts, especially Arabic, reinforces the hypothesis that the VMS script may be an abjad." [6]. R. Zandbergen says, "Other typical features of the ciphers in Tranchedino are...that double characters are usually represented by a single code character." [7] Since there is some debate over whether spaces in the text are word separators, I decided to remove them as well. Then I tried the following modified cribs:
B L C K D R
1 2 3 4 5 6
B L D R C K
1 2 5 6 3 4
I used the D’Imperio transcription [8] for two main reasons: 1) this is an April Fool’s joke, so why not?, and 2) if you can’t trust the NSA, who can you trust? Modifying an existing Awk [9] program I use to look at k-gram statistics, I was soon pumping out possible matches to my cribs:
BLCKDR Count BLDRCK Count
[...]
ZC94OF 53 ZCOF94 2
SC94OF 55 SCOF94 2
OEZC89 67 OE89ZC 3
OESC89 108 OE89SC 3
4OFC89 201 4O89FC 2
Faced with multiple possible matches, I looked for the most common match for BLCKDR that occurred on f43v, and lo and behold, there was SC94OF! Looking at that line in the raw transcription file:
08404B 8ZC9/9FCC89/SCC2/AN/Z9/4OQC89/SC9/4OFAR/SCX9/OFAJ-
the match for BLCKDR starts after a space, but (1) has a space in the middle between ‘9’ and ‘4’, and (2) does not have a space at the end of the word. Point (1) is worth examining as it illuminates the sort of issues that lead some to question whether spaces in the manuscript are word separators. Looking at the Herbal A “language” pages in the D’Imperio transcription, 67% of the time a ‘9’ is followed by a space (1097 occurrences); 11% of the time it is followed by the end of a line (203 occurrences). It is *never* directly followed by ‘4’ without an intervening space -- the only glyphs that follow it within a "word" more than a single-digit number of times are ‘F’ (103), ‘P’ (92), ‘8’ (52), ‘S’ (51), and ‘B’ (16) (‘Z’ just misses the cutoff at 8 occurrences).
Having successfully identified two plaintext words and determined the consonantal values of six Currier glyphs, it is now necessary to explain why further application of this key produces gibberish. This is a reef multiple previous proposed decipherments using cribs have run aground on, so I see no reason not to follow their example and double down, insisting on the patently obvious correctness of the deciphered cribs and maintaining that further study will no doubt solve the problem. Beyond the far less standardized spelling common in the late 15th century, part of the incomprehensibility may be a result of Baldrick having written portions of the manuscript. While no texts written by him survive, it is known that a Victorian-era descendant of his had such appalling spelling that he gave Mr. Ebenezer Blackadder a holiday card which managed to misspell "Christmas" so badly that it didn't include any of the actual letters in the word [10].
It might also be objected that the reign of Prince Edmund’s father, King Richard IV, (1485 to 1498) falls outside the 95% probability interval of 1404 and 1435 generated by C-14 dating of vellum samples from the manuscript [11]. As it has been scientifically established that there were heaps of unused vellum just lying around waiting for later use, I don’t see that this objection has any force.
Speculating further on the yet-undeciphered content of the manuscript, I would suggest that the so-called “Zodiac” folios are, in fact, Prince Edmund’s list of conquests – similar to that of the legendary Don Juan [12] but arranged by the zodiac sign of the lady in question rather than country of residence, with Baldrick as the Prince's Leporello. Such a large set of paramours would make him a worthy great-great-great-great-grandson of Edward III, who sired so many children that one estimate has it that the probability that a Briton born in the 1970s isn't related to Edward III is as small as 0.0000000000000000000000000001 [13]. If my hypothesis is correct, then it is as least as likely that almost all current Britons have a little bit of Prince Edmund’s DNA in them as well. (Ironically, the large number of Britons with a little bit of his DNA in them was one of the reasons cited by two of the three popes at the time in their Bulls excommunicating Prince Edmund after an unfortunate incident in a nunnery in November of 1487 [14].)
Given the confirmation this provides for the reality of the reign of Richard IV (written out of the history books for centuries by people like Alison Weir [15]), an additional avenue of research this decipherment opens up is the extent to which Henry VII was responsible for the broader fabrication of British history uncovered by A. T. Fomenko and G.V.Nosovskij. They claim "...ancient and medieval English events are to be transferred to the epoch which begins from 9-10th cc....many of these events prove to be the reflections of certain events from real Byzantine-Roman history of 9-15th cc." [16]. Thus, for instance, they claim that the English King William I (conventionally 1066-1087 C.E.) and the Byzantine Emperor Theodore I Lascaris (conventionally 1204-1222 C.E.) were, in fact, the same person. While they blame Scaliger and Petavius for this confusion, the distortions of English history pointed out by the narrator in [17] suggest Henry VII as an equally likely contributor/culprit:
”History has known many great liars: Copernicus, Goebbels, St Ralph the Liar -- but there have been none quite so vile as the Tudor king Henry VII. It was he who rewrote history to portray his predecessor Richard III as a deformed maniac who killed his nephews in the Tower. But the real truth is that Richard was a kind and thoughtful man who cherished his young wards. In particular: Richard, Duke of York, who grew into a big, strong boy. Henry also claimed he won the Battle of Bosworth Field and killed Richard III. Again, the truth is very different; for it was Richard, Duke of York, who became king after Bosworth Field, and reigned for thirteen glorious years.”
No doubt additional light will be shed on those glorious years as further progress is made deciphering the manuscript following the initial chink I have opened in its armor. If so, no doubt there will be books written about me, and songs sung about me, and the History Channel will show episodes from my life weekly at half past nine starring some great heroic actor of our age in the lead role.
Assuming, of course, that Alison Weir doesn't put out a hit on me....
References:
[1] You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
[2] You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. respectively
[3] You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
[4] You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
[5] You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
[6] You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
[7] You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
[8] You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
[9] You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
[10] You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (“However, be that as it may...’A Merry Messy Christmas.’ ‘Christmas’ has an H in it, Mr. Baldrick....and an R. Also an I, and an S. Also T and M and A....and another S. Oh, and you’ve missed out the C at the beginning. Congratulations, Mr. Baldrick! Something of a triumph, I think — you must be the first person ever to spell `Christmas’ without getting any of the letters right at all.” The title card at the end reveals that Baldrick had spelled it "Kweznuz" after initially trying and crossing out "Kwelfnuve.”)
[11] You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
[12] You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
[13] You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
[14] You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (quoting the Mother Superior of the nunnery: “And finally, you got two knights drunk and invited them to come and wrestle with you inside the nunnery in an orgy of heathen perversity?...it has the unmistakable ring of truth to it, and I must therefore tell you that this morning I have written urgently to all three popes recommending your immediate excommunication. Nevermore may you be Archbishop of Canterbury!”)
[15] You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
[16] You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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| Voynich text as Base20 |
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Posted by: RobGea - 30-03-2022, 11:10 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (6)
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Voynich text as Base20
EMS suggested to report failed experiments.
After 5 days of work, this fell on its face, so here it is.
Decoding vms text as Base20 ran into a leading zeroes problem.
Idea as follows:
:: Decode text as Base20
-eva has 26 chars (TT only uses 22-Fail 1)
-assume 6 lowest frequency eva chars represent something else, like planets, constellations, stars, whatever
-leaves 20 letters, map those letters onto the 'symbols' for a Base20 number system (vigesimal)
-convert newly created Base20 num into a decimal number
Now you have a nice set of decimal numbers that you can do what you want with ( indices in a look-up table == unnecessary-Fail 2).
Code: Vord Base20 Decimal
dain 647d 49753
qokeedy e081163 897288523
okey 0813 3223
:: Encode text as Base20
-take some normal text, strip puntuation etc
-allocate each unique word a random number in decimal ( this step is for easy computation (and i had an indexing idea but...)
-convert that number to base20
-convert the base20 number into eva
ie map Base20 symbols onto the commonest 20 eva symbols
:: Result
Courtesy of project gutenberg : A Scandal in Bohemia by A.conan-doyle
plaintext:
to sherlock holmes she is always the woman i have
seldom heard him mention her under any other name in
his eyes she eclipses and predominates the whole of her
sex it was not that he felt any emotion akin
to love for irene adler all emotions and that one
particularly were abhorrent to his cold precise but admirably balanced
mind he was i take it the most perfect reasoning
and observing machine that the world has seen but as
encoded:
ap oqsgcki oinflyx oie ook frn aled aktkcr esk hhy
adq as rypp tdkg triqya oe hod i omm hy
ha iednsk oie yc olxc odt aled dshg oq triqya
e yets yoci ar ce fm qm hod ydglhy parfgm
ap dhtn ony aye ocr ykl ond olxc ce nkaspk
oysf osc tok ap ha hfcn ya oqc hr gnl
hm fm yoci esk yf yets aled hr eoyh n
olxc rmi hkii ce aled he ohtpxhe hg oqc ae
Conclusion::
idk. 
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Don't get fooled again. |
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Posted by: R. Sale - 21-03-2022, 01:24 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (5)
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The VMs is difficult to interpret for several reasons: indecipherable linguistics, mediocre artistry, obscure representations, and the investigative failure to follow the VMs rules. This results in the inability to separate valid and useful interpretations from those that not valid and extraneous.
If the growing number of subtle, religious references are accepted, it is also reasonable to consider that this religious content is part of a religious frame of reference. Therefore, if we wish to discover what is valid, we need to see what the VMs can show that is valid, and how that sort of demonstration takes place. And to see that it takes place in a way that cannot itself be invalidated.
Well, surprise! Such a system exists. It is basic. It is simple. And it is Biblical. It comes from the laws of Deuteronomy. It is the ancient law that validation requires two witnesses. [Deut. 17:6 and 19:15] It is a law that is repeated twice. In the VMs, it is the rule of pairing. Pairing is validation.
Validation of what, you may ask. First, in the Zodiac sequence medallions, pairing validates that pairing is an operative system in the VMs. That like objects make obvious pairs, but complimentary opposites are just as valid. And second that heraldic pairing can establish historical grounding. Paired heraldic insignia: paired bendy, argent et azur, paired papellony furs, paired red galeros (Catholic cardinals), paired white galeros (Premonstratensians)
Appearance may be deceptive, in some cases intentionally so, but pairing as an aspect of traditional structure provides a significant insight into the workings of the VMs. The recognition of pairings in certain VMs illustrations can demonstrate how the VMs artist has created the VMs disguise.
The VMs cosmos combines the "Parisian" cosmic structure of BNF Fr. 565 (Oresme) made c. 1410, and Harley 334 (De Metz) made c. 1430, and the plain nebuly line version of a cosmic boundary from the Berry Apocalypse, with the 'wheel and curved spokes" image of Shirakatsi's Eight Phases of the Moon diagram.
The so called VMs mermaid combines the generic "mermaid and other creatures' representation as found in Harley 334 (above) and in the illustrations of Diebold Lauber's version of the Buch de Natur, with the Luxembourg version of the mythical Melusine.
The VMs critter of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. combines a representation of the Burgundian 'Golden Fleece" with a specific structural representation of an Agnus Dei image from the Apocalypse of S Jean (BNF Fr. 13096) created in 1313, but later a part of the Burgundian library.
A second representation of the Golden Fleece, as a companion of Melusine, then validates this identification as part of a pairing. Don't be fooled by appearance. The Valois ancestry from the Luxembourg version of mythical Melusine and the Burgundian Golden Fleece are one and the same. They are verified by the historical description of 'The Feast of the Pheasant', and further connections between the Duke of Berry (d. 1416) and the Lusignan version of Melusine are very well documented.
Don't be fooled by VMs trickery. Pairing indicates validity.
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| C-14 Iconology |
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Posted by: R. Sale - 16-03-2022, 08:20 PM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (4)
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While you can't test icons for C-14, you can rediscover the icons that were relevant during the C-14 dates. However, it has taken some time to recover those icons and to place those that are relevant into a functional interpretation. This is a compilation of multiple investigators' results.
The VMs begins with a lot of herbal illustrations. Some are a bit odd, others are totally strange. Regardless of potential identification, no connection with the written text has been established. And that goes for the written text throughout the VMs. Nothing in the written text can reliably be read. That leaves the collective remains of VMs illustrations.
The plants can take a lot of time and yet reveal nothing. The cosmic pages reveal nothing. Only when the reader can see the VMs cosmos itself can the true depths of VMs trickery and obfuscation be seen by those who recognize the two icons combined to create this representation. Trickery and obfuscation are further revealed in the VMs Zodiac sequence with a focus on White Aries. White Aries is a structure built of icons and traditions. But the icons and traditions of the VMs are those from 600 or more years in the past.
Furthermore, where the artist of a standard text would endeavor to maximize and make obvious, the VMs artist has chosen to minimize and disguise, to create ambiguity. Not to eliminate, but to obfuscate. The icons are present even though they have been hidden by their altered appearance. Despite visible ambiguity, interpretation and identification are facilitated by the structure of the illustration, as an examination of the details of the VMs cosmos reveals, and further examples confirm this use of standard iconic structure.
The iconology of the VMs is only suggested by the potential recognition of ambiguous appearance. Potential VMs iconography can be verified by historical research and by the investigation of internal details in the VMs illustrations that reveal iconic structure.
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| Circular text & Wreath |
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Posted by: R. Sale - 12-03-2022, 08:28 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (3)
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Is this f86v5, with the wreath??
Has there been any special investigation of the circular text?
If we continue the conjecture that this folio interpretation is tied to C-14 contemporary religious trends in Mariology, that this is the 'wreath of the virgin', and the virgin is represented by the moon, then what if these four lines of text are also a part, as prayers, like the "little office of the virgin" in some form.
The attempt to match VMs text to historical text, based on plant identifications produced no viable candidates, will other possibilities fare any better?
ADD: REFERENCE
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Notes: Premonstratensians are the white galeros. Mandatory during C-14 dates. Variable. Need relevant examples.
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| Ksenia Chepikova about the Voynich Manuscript |
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Posted by: Anton - 12-03-2022, 01:15 AM - Forum: News
- Replies (4)
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A friend of mine dropped me the link. The interview is in Russian, and as far as I can see there are no English subtitles unfortunately.
Unfortunately, these days I haven't had enough time yet to view it in full, the first ~20 minutes that I got into are mostly descriptive, what's the VMS, its history and all that. The description of the video, however, announces the subject of whether the VMS is, or is not, a "modern forgery" as the main subject of the talk.
What I did not like from the onset was the suggestion that the VMS may be a palimpsest. I recall that the statement that the VMS is not a palimpsest was the one most unanimously (pardon me this) approved in our sadly abandoned Voynich facts endeavour.
A quick search showed me that Dr. Chepikova is from the University of Jena. I don't remember her name mentioned in any of the Voynich discussions however.
The Russian speakers who happen to watch the video in full please be welcome to add to this; so will I when I have time to watch it further.
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| Medieval Arabic manuscripts in Timbuktu digitized and translated |
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Posted by: RenegadeHealer - 11-03-2022, 02:16 PM - Forum: Codicology and Paleography
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Good news reported by the BBC recently:
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The climate in Timbuktu, Mali is ideal for the natural preservation of ancient codices. In Medieval Times Timbuktu was a major overland transport hub, and amassed one of the world’s largest library of mostly Arabic language manuscripts, on all sorts of topics.
The reason this makes me happy is because in recent years Timbuktu has seen a lot of Islamic fundamentalist unrest, and is not safe for Western tourists or researchers to visit. As the article describes, there have been (so far only slightly successful) attempts by militant Islamists to destroy these codices. We may have lost the priceless libraries at Alexandria and Baghdad, but copies of some of the manuscripts contained there might very well have made their way to Timbuktu.
It’s my opinion that Medieval Arabic manuscripts are a potentially fruitful source of precedents for anyone exploring alchemical and/or herbal themes in the VMs. Or earlier and closer-to-the-source versions of mythology and philosophy from the world of Classical Antiquity.
Learning to read classical Arabic and spending my days looking at digitized alchemical manuscripts is one idea I have for a retirement project, if I ever retire.
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| Well of Moses |
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Posted by: R. Sale - 10-03-2022, 10:43 PM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (6)
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Need something hexagonal to subtly fill in under that starry canopy in your central VMs Rosette?
You've tried thrones and fountains and pulpits, and they just don't seem right.
Try Well of Moses! Clearly hexagonal and the provenance is delicious. Goes great with mythical Melusine, the Golden Fleece, and La Sainte Hostie de Dijon.
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