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| Lunar mansions... yet again. |
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Posted by: Diane - 25-03-2018, 11:09 AM - Forum: Astrology & Astronomy
- Replies (1)
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Even at Voynich ninja, a search on 'lunar mansions' will turn up a long list of posts.
I've been explaining that they are not 'magical' by definition... and explaining their use as an earlier and persistent alternative (beyond Europe) for astronomical and geographic co-ordinates.
I've talked about their use in navigation, as explained by the fifteenth-century master of the Indian Ocean routes, Ibn Majid. I've quoted Sergeant and others on the Yemeni agricultural calendars which name the months in that way.
I - and doubtless others - have noted that they name the lunar months of the Islamic calendar, and that every muezzin would have known them and the stars marking each.
It is therefore a little disappointing to notice that the older idea that any mention of the manzil must be 'magical' is being pursued again, but the bright side is that in a passage translated recently by Marco Ponzi there are two clear indications that the Latin material has come from Islamic Spain, and that its basic attitudes are compatible with the period when Ibn Arabi wrote his 'Bezels of Wisdom' and 'Holy Names..'
I've also spoken about these works before, in explaining how the system of lunar mansions was employed in much the way the Psalter was in earlier Latin Europe: to provide the basic structure upon with additional sets of information were attached in one variation of aids to recall.
Anyway, the clues in Ponzi's translation are these:
... oh, sorry. I can't be more precise, or quote the original passages because Marco Ponzi doesn't wish me to read what he writes, and has now (since I read the post first) blocked my ability to read it. Things the non-conservative are not meant to read, apparently.
Hardly conducive to scholarly exchange, improved understanding or reasonable debate but there you go.
I don't quite see the sense of it, frankly, because any spammer could surely just get a new email address, use someone else's computer or employ some similar dishonesty if they wished.
If they cared enough.
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| Claimed translations |
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Posted by: Diane - 24-03-2018, 11:11 AM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (7)
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Two things - first, has anyone made a list of every claimed translation for the written part of the text? Someone asked me how many there are now, and I found myself unable even to guess. Twenty? Thirty?
Secondly, I thought it might be interesting to compare each claimed translation of a single folio - I've chosen folio 33v because the text is fairly short but not too much so.
Anyone able to provide one or more claimed translation of f.33v?
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| A random language upon which to experiment |
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Posted by: davidjackson - 23-03-2018, 08:28 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (10)
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Thought experiment in progress....
We wish to analyse an entirely unknown language to see if our statistical models work upon it to produce meaning.
The language should be European based, but not a formalised main stream lingua franca. The language must be organic, as opposed to constructed. At the same time, we need to be able to translate this language to ensure the accuracy of our models.
For reasons of transcription, we use the European alphabet, but we are not concerned with standardised spelling.
So, what language to use? Here's one example, Polari (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
Quote:Polari (or alternatively Parlare, Parlary, Palare, Palarie, Palari; from Italian parlare, "to talk") is a form of cant slang used in Britain by some actors, circus and fairground showmen, professional wrestlers, merchant navy sailors, criminals, prostitutes, and the gay subculture. There is some debate about its origins, but it can be traced back to at least the 19th century and possibly the 16th century.
So, my question: what analysis can we run upon this "language" to gain a base reading for our statistical analysis before applying them to the Voynich language? I have lots of half formed ideas, but I would value input before expounding upon them.
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| Articles by Sukhotin |
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Posted by: ReneZ - 22-03-2018, 08:33 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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Most people will be familiar with the algorithm of Boris V. Sukhotin that identifies which characters in a text are more likely to be vowels and which are more likely to be consonants.
The Russian text was translated into English by Jacques Guy and published in Cryptologia.
There is also a copy of this article You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .
Sukhotin has designed several more articles and these were also translated by Jacques Guy. He posted them to the old mailing list in 1997.
I have converted these to HTML and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .
They seem quite interesting, and I am not aware of anyone having tried them out on the Voynich MS text.
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| Poll: Cosmic comparison |
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Posted by: R. Sale - 17-03-2018, 11:02 PM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (3)
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Seeking more discussion on the topic of Cosmic comparison between the two representations: Oresme's BNF Fr. 565 and the VMs f68v.
Oresme's (565) illustration is a non-religious representation of an earth-centered cosmos with a rather uncommon, simplified structure of three basic parts: (1) inverted T-O earth, (2) surrounding stars, (3) outer cloud band with 43 undulations.
So far, no other cosmic representation has this same structure --- with the possible exception of VMs f68v.
Proposition A: The VMs cosmic structure was derived from that of the Oresme image.
While there is much similarity is structure between the two representations, there are significant differences in their visual appearances.
Proposition B: The differences in visual appearance are intended to disguise the use of the Oresme cosmos as the source of the VMs.
Comments welcomed.
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| Objective comparisons |
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Posted by: R. Sale - 11-03-2018, 02:01 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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The investigation of VMs illustrations has long been based on the comparison of appearance, proposing a match between a particular VMs illustration with something from a historical source. It has generally been considered that the best approach to making such a discovery is to match appearance as closely as possible. And conversely, the failure to demonstrate a sufficient similarity in appearance has also been considered to be a failure of the comparison per se. Given that the interpretation of appearance is subjective, differences of opinion will arise on specific issues, but, basically, investigation remains stuck in this appearance-based paradigm.
Let’s consider a different tactic. Let’s make a more fundamental inquiry. If appearance is subjective, *what* is objective?
Structure, position, sequence, number, and color can be considered objective factors. Some of these are just natural; others require the knowledge of particular traditions and historical examples. With that knowledge, comparative similarities can be demonstrated objectively, even when appearance is subjective and ambiguous. And this is important because the VMs illustrations are not only subjective in their interpretation, they are often ambiguous in their creation. And by ambiguous, I mean that they intentionally contain visual elements of confirmation and contradiction.
Ambiguity in the VMs often seems to contain enough contradiction to confuse and frustrate identification and also to maintain sufficient confirmation to prevent complete rejection. And this ambiguous, visual appearance is then given objective confirmation by structure, for example, as seen in the cosmic comparison. *Once the proper and absolutely necessary historical illustration [Oresme BNF Fr. 565] has been rediscovered!* (E. Velinska 2014)
What is more, the degree of structural similarity reveals that Oresme (565) is a highly probable source for VMs f68v, while the degree of visual dissimilarity reveals the extent to which the creator of the VMs representation was able to play off of the original Oresme image in order to create the intended difference in appearance that attempts to disguise the source of this particular cosmic structure. The VMs creator avoids the pictorial version of an inverted T-O earth, makes a circular joke from *surrounded by stars*, clearly knows the cloudy interpretation of a nebuly line, has hidden the good cloud band in the Central Rosette, and has tossed in a big old wheel with curved spokes entirely composed of textual banners, purely for the sake of visual effect in creating apparent difference where none exists.
The use of these objective factors as a means of identification occurs in other VMs locations.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. In the 4 x 17 symbol sequence, the fifth symbol has three different interpretations: as a medieval number, as a Roman numeral (inverted), and as a Greek alphanumeric. Each interpretation is confirmed by a separate sequential or positional (objective) fact.
F70v2 This is VMs Pisces at the start of the Zodiac sequence. This is the start of the pairing paradigm. The pairing paradigm follows the law of Deuteronomy in the requirement that the truth must have two or more witnesses. And, despite the outrageous beginnings of the VMs Zodiac sequence, the pairing paradigm is maintained, in various ways, through the central medallions of the first five zodiac houses.
Pairing continues in a second (paired) phase in the tub patterns at the top of VMs Pisces. Some of the basic patterns found on the Pisces and Aries pages invite comparison with heraldic insignia, perhaps such as those that were used on pharmaceutical jars for a time. But the lack of color and other discrepancies create a very difficult problem. There is in fact an intentional ambiguity involved, that seeks to provoke sufficient difficulties to prevent the investigator from working around the entire circuit. And that is because something significant is sitting in the fourth quadrant. It is a strange twist of history that something so significant to the interpretation of these illustrations turns out to be an almost obscure and forgotten heraldic fur – paired in Pisces and Dark Aries.
The path of pairing continues on White Aries. And behind the optical illusion of radial orientation there sits a pair of blue-striped patterns. And this pair of armorial insignia, in combination with a potential red galero, make an unmistakable visual reference to a specific historical event. *If the reader knows that event!* And otherwise there is no event recognition..
Built-in confirmations occur nevertheless, with the recognition of the presence (1) of the proper, traditional placement of the relevant figures according to clerical hierarchy; (2) of the most favored location according to heraldic positioning; and (3) of the use of the only acceptable zodiac medallion based on ancient sacrificial rituals. All of this, which conforms to historical examples and known traditions, based on objective determinations of position and structure, is confirmed by being represented in the VMS.
And to leave no doubt, there is the structural correspondence, in quadrant and in sphere of the paired blue-striped patterns on White Aries with the pair of papelonny patterns of the pages just prior. The VMs author has created an example of heraldic canting that works well in French. Oresme was French. The scallop-shell patterned version of the cloud band is well represented in French sources.
A fancy pair of Stolfi’s text markers are found in the circular bands of text on White Aries. They are connected to the investigation of historical heraldry because there is a connected example drawn on the page! The possibility of further investigation might be discussed later. The point here is that the objective means of investigation have yielded some success, while the subjective appearance of images spin some strange stories that have no objective confirmations in the VMs.
What are the necessary criteria for the consideration of an alternative paradigm in the VMs investigations? The investigation of VMs illustrations can not be totally based on visual appearance. Rather, such an investigation depends predominantly on the objective means outlined above, as a way to connect the ambiguous illustrations with established traditions and historical events.
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You are welcome to add any other observations on this section.
