• Options
• Login
• Desktop Style

The Voynich Ninja

• Index

  • The Voynich Ninja
  • Portal

Welcome, Guest You have to register before you can post on our site. Username/Email:    Password    Remember me Search Forums (Advanced Search) Online Users There are currently 324 online users. » 5 Member(s) | 316 Guest(s) Applebot, Bing, Google, Dana Scott, Gregor, Mark Knowles, Oocephalus, yinyang2024 Latest Threads Why not positional variat... Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: oshfdk 1 hour ago » Replies: 68 » Views: 7,983 New Decoder Forum: Voynich Talk Last Post: Eiríkur 4 hours ago » Replies: 8 » Views: 848 Origin of the Shield Shap... Forum: Imagery Last Post: Dobri 5 hours ago » Replies: 100 » Views: 4,190 Big Red Weirdos Forum: Voynich Talk Last Post: Koen G Yesterday, 06:59 PM » Replies: 63 » Views: 45,058 f85v and 86(part): using ... Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: R. Sale Yesterday, 04:44 PM » Replies: 38 » Views: 2,663 Book Available on Amazon Forum: News Last Post: bi3mw Yesterday, 01:45 PM » Replies: 1 » Views: 135 Eleven Moon Phases in Fol... Forum: Astrology Last Post: Dobri Yesterday, 12:44 PM » Replies: 103 » Views: 8,937 Always impressive Forum: Fiction, Comics, Films & Videos, Games & other Media Last Post: Aga Tentakulus 11-05-2025, 11:28 PM » Replies: 14 » Views: 4,218 Solutions [discussion thr... Forum: Voynich Talk Last Post: davidd 11-05-2025, 10:16 PM » Replies: 55 » Views: 9,885 Favorite Plant Tournament... Forum: Voynich Talk Last Post: Koen G 11-05-2025, 09:05 PM » Replies: 5 » Views: 168

Great Vid for Voynich Newbs lol Posted by: stellar - 04-02-2017, 11:08 PM - Forum: Fiction, Comics, Films & Videos, Games & other Media - Replies (3) I like this video, how do you feel about it?   [split] Could the manuscript be a copy of older documents? Posted by: Koen G - 04-02-2017, 12:22 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (20) Edit: this was originally a reply to David's medieval nymph thread. Since it got into another direction quite fast I split it. Hi David I'm dealing with a rather dynamic two-and-a-half year old at the moment so I can't answer as elaborately as I should, but I'll give some initial comments already. One thing I still don't understand is why people discard the possibility that the manuscript's imagery was copied from an older tradition instead of a 15th century creation. This is not a hypothetical scenario, it happened a lot. I will again refer to the various traditions of astronomical manuscripts, where we see 15th century copies of 9th-10th century manuscripts. These, in turn, were relatively accurate copies of Greco-Roman imagery. So once again, "ancient sources" is a valid possibility that should be considered as much as "medieval creation" and renaissance.  What makes the Voynich different then? Well first of all, the fact that the in-between material has been lost, probably because the tradition was not mainstream in the first place. This means that the best parallels are found in the ancient artefacts which lie at the basis of the now lost tradition. And secondly, the fact that the usual medieval adaptations have often not been applied. When medieval scribes copied older sources, they would often put contemporary clothes on the figures. Clothing is a huge cultural marker, so adapting it to a "modern" equivalent will make it easier to understand for your audience. This is why it's not unusual to see Hercules as an armored knight sometimes, or rulers as medieval kings. This has happened in the VM, but only in a minority of the figures. Unfortunately, this solution is more complex than assuming a 15th century original creation. If the manuscript's imagery goes back to Greco-Roman originals (most likely first centuries CE, in my opinion), then which alterations were made in between? How many in-between copies have there been, and by which cultures? Were all sections altered equally? Did all sections originate in the same setting? When were the sections first gathered? Which alterations were still made in the 15th century copy that is left now? When was the text made the way it is now and why? Anyway, if you can explain to me why even intelligent people like you discard the possibility that the VM might be a fruit of a tree with rather deep roots, I might learn something Other points: I agree that the nymphs are vessels, not individuals. It is almost as if the manuscript uses the nude human form as a default carrier of concepts, without that human body itself having much significance. But isn't the usual medieval approach that such concepts are still tied to an individual saint or other figure? Also, they are usually clothed. We must look for situations where the nude human form is a "blank" carrier of meaning, like mannequins. The pose, position and any attributes are much more important than the actual person. I'd say that the word "person" doesn't even apply to Voynich nymphs. A while ago, when I asked for parallels in medieval art for the nymphs' proportions, I was surprised to get many suggestions from Romance regions, often some centuries older than the VM. This agrees with some of your observations. This might shed some light on the earlier medieval stages of the transmission of the material. The scarcity of christian thought and symbolism in the manuscript and the preference for nude figures is not something I find hard to explain . But it is indeed necessary to address this in any kind of analysis of the figures. The way the faces are drawn is something I've seen in other manuscripts as well. This should still be studied, it might again teach us something about transmission. But I'm afraid this way of drawing faces was relatively common - I can't say without several days of looking at faces in manuscripts first    Medieval nymph tendencies Posted by: davidjackson - 04-02-2017, 09:51 AM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (3) One of the irritations of this manuscript is that we can't pin down a specific era or artistic tendency. In some ways it seems to be medieval; in others, Renaissance. Frankly, I would suggest that this is because it was created on the edge of two worlds, it is a book created in a Renaissance mindset but with medieval influences. I've been looking at marginal medieval sources that could have inspired the artistic abilities of the scribe. I've mentioned before the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. from the time of Alfonso X, which shares certain similarities with the Voynich nymphs. Quote:Note the simple strong penmark for the face which does not show the closest cheek (admittedly many of the nymphs have no chin, but bear in the mind the small size of the image - larger ones often do), the sharp nose with eye and strong eyebrows. The same method is used to draw the face of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in the VM. Note also the simple hands without thumbs and long joined fingers. The inclined head which nonetheless displays the full face to the viewer in a somewhat distorted manner (there is no attempt at perspective here). Here's a miniature of Theresa of Portugal (1080-1130) in the same tradition: (Taken from the Gothic codex of the monastery of Toxosoutos) But this tendency of round faces with staring eyes carried over in Spanish religious icongraphy of the era. Here's a couple of photos of 14th century wooden carvings that I took in a Church museum in Cuenca recently (excuse bad photography, I wasn't supposed to be taking photos and the room was in darkness)   P1010458-001.JPG (Size: 70.53 KB / Downloads: 228)   P1010460.JPG (Size: 74.04 KB / Downloads: 217) These images aren't here to be looked at. They are blank, staring, almost formless human beings. Because their intention is to remind us of our duty to God. Look how the second image has a massive hand which comes out at you, along with the missing hand. Originally the carving's focal point would have been what was held there, not the body itself which is simply a vehicle for the objects of devotion. We see more Iberian influences in the book - the much quoted Alfonso X zodiac influences, for example. I am not suggesting an Iberian provenance for the book here, but rather calling attention to the artistic tradition. The scribe may have studied in Spain, which at the time of the early 15th century was a major calling port for itinerant scribes; he may have been otherwise exposed to the influences. It's part of the Romanic medieval tendency. The human body is drawn to vague outlines, because the important thing is the symbology that surrounds the body - the religious iconography. Note the strong blue skies that call our attention to God, along with the devotion in the objects being held aloft, as well as the thrones temporal upon which the figures sit or stand. The Romanic medieval artistic influence is across Europe, but artistic interpretation varies from region to region. The Iberian tradition, especially in the northern states (along the Camino de Santiago pilgrimage routes) were much simpler than their French or Catalan cousins, who seem to have liked to add a lot of fruit salad to their pictures (ornate backgrounds and the like). We see this medieval lack of interest in the Voynich human figures that corresponds to medieval tradition, rather than the anthropocentric interests of the Renaissance. There is no attempt at realism other than the generic outlines of a body - the figures are much more in the tradition of the medieval peasant grotesque than any attempt to depict actual humans. There is no attempt at perspective in most if not all human figures - they are either shown face on or on one side. When shown inside a setting such as a river or a building, the perspective is flat on the page. The artist clearly has no idea of how to produce any attempt at a 3d depiction. It has been said that the images look innocent, as if drawn by a child - I suggest that they are simply a product of the artistic influences surrounding the scribe. When we see a nymph holding an object aloft, or interacting, we are clearly in this medieval tradition - our attention is being called to the action displayed or symbology, rather than to the person. Is the symbology Christian? It doesn't appear to be, which is why we can't pinpoint the artistic tendency. We're seeing the medieval influence but it's a vehicle for some other symbology that doesn't geld with what we know it should be. Which is why it's so perplexing. The ideas in the book seem to be Renaissance. But the mindset is still medieval. It's as if the scribe were classically trained, but exploring new, exciting and perhaps taboo ideas.   Voynich Manuscript Middle English Posted by: stellar - 03-02-2017, 07:24 PM - Forum: News - Replies (9) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. For anyone interested this book is available at Amazon. The interior is full color and a glossy cover! Published: January 27, 2017 Author: Tom E. O'Neil 8.5" x 11" (21.59 x 27.94 cm)  Full Color on White paper 38 pages ISBN-13: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (CreateSpace-Assigned)  ISBN-10: 1542798663  BISAC: History / Europe / Great Britain / General Why has the VMS garnished so much attention from amateur and professional cryptographers, programmers, linguists and art historians? Truly I believe that at first glance by all it looks like the VMS text can be read. That in the moment of the first glance it looks simple, but once fully invested the person realizes the VMS is highly complex. For what it’s worth, what I have found is the translation is not all that exciting. Language frequencies have been applied to the VMS without finding any consistent language that fits a straight across translation. This has led some to believe the VMS is a hoax or an invented language. I believe the latter! What would cause so many failed attempts at decoding the VMS? The author would invent a language as a cipher of scrambled letters replacing words to numbers in the invented language and to further complicate it, make it look like a known language. What I propose is that the VMS glyphs have been strategically placed and that the letter values being numbers are of Middle English Gematria origin. This is known as ordinal gematria.   Colors Posted by: VViews - 01-02-2017, 07:46 PM - Forum: Physical material - Replies (16) Hi everyone, sadly I have so far been unable to retrieve any part of the thread that I had started on this subject, so here we are. I can't remember everything that was posted in the previous thread, but I do recall the reference to ReneZ's list of extraneous writing in the Voynich, which can be found You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Based on that list, the potential color annotations visible in the Voynich are: f1v: A single 'g' under the paint of the second leftmost green leaf f2r: Voynich text (ios an on ?) under green paint of bottom right leaf (middle petal) f4r: A capital F in the rightmost flower        The word 'rot' written vertically in the stem of the plant  f9v: A single 'g' to the right of the top right flower        Several characters in the top left flower under the blue paint: 'por' in the top petal, 'p' in the lower left petal and 'r' in the lower right petal f20r: A 'p' (or possibly an 'r') at the top of the root system 28v: Some apparent symbols in the middle of the flower 32r: A 'p' and what looks like a 'v' or an 'r' in the bottom right flower. There could be another character after the 'p'. 39v: A capital B in the white space between the two green part of the bottom right leaf. I also recall mentioning the work of Patricia Stirnemann, and have found additional links which may be of interest to those who want to look into color annotations. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I need to go back and read that article again but I do remember that it mentioned that color annotations appear irregularly within a given MS, and that color indications often show the sequence in which alternating colors were to be painted. Both of these observations seemed broadly consistent with what can be seen in the Voynich. Additionally, I found this article by Andreas Petzold which also deals with color annotations: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I apologize for not remembering the other contributions to the thread, please repost if you do!   State of the Voynich January 2017: RESULTS Posted by: Koen G - 29-01-2017, 08:37 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk - Replies (1) The first results thread was lost in the database crash and I am unable to recover it. So here I will list again the result of our first "state of the Voynich" survey, in which we tried to make a snapshot of the beliefs that live in our community. These results reflect the state as it was in early January 2017. Sixteen members participated. Yes/no questions The percentages reflect the amount of respondents who were more inclined to answer "yes" than "no" to the question: 0%  Is the manuscript any kind of hoax? 15% Is alchemy an important part of the manuscript? 20% Have the images been made ambiguous or otherwise strange to conceal their true meaning? 23% Is the majority of the plants exotic from a European perspective? 23% Is the manuscript authored by a known historical figure? 67% Has the text been purposefully enciphered to conceal its meaning? 67% Is medicine an important part of the manuscript? 67% Is the manuscript the creative product of one mind, i.e. an author? 87% Is astronomy and/or astrology an important part of the manuscript? 93% Are the plants meant to refer to real plants? 93% Will there be any breakthrough in Voynich studies in 2017? 100% Does the text contain any meaning? 100% Do the images match the text? 100% Will we ever be able to read the manuscript? Open questions:  What is quire 13 about? The main group of answers can be classified as "medicine, anatomy, bathing", with seven mentions. Other mentions included astronomy, meteorology, natural philosophy and geography. What is quire 20 about? This question was very hard to answer and many users opted to skip it. Answers included: excerpts from known texts, geography, history, philosophy , various advices and thoughts, proverbs, recipes. Which language? - Latin (6) - Non-European language (6) - European vernacular (4) - Greek (3) Final notes I had included some other observations but I can't remember all of them. A funny stat was that Anton and davidjackson agreed most often with the majority answer, while Koen Gh. and Sam G's answers differed most often from the majority.  It is also interesting to note that the yes/no questions are fairly polarizing: with a large gap between 23% and 67%, the 50% is always out of reach. Finally, I will note again that I am encouraged to see the optimism and belief in our possibilities that shines through these results. I am looking forward to see what our answers will be in January 2018!   Rectangular quatrefoil Posted by: R. Sale - 29-01-2017, 12:30 AM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (1) Originally posted as 'Heraldic quatrefoil' which seems to have gone missing in the recent situation. Ellie Velinska has an old post on this pattern.  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. And JKP posted a recent example of a band composed of simple squares, each with four lines extending from the midpoint of each side going part way to the interior.  The pattern is found in heraldry. And once you know what you're looking for, it shows up fairly frequently either in banded patterns or as medieval wallpaper. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. The interior markkings may be line or loops. Both occur in the VMs. The center may be pierced, dotted or unmarked. Heraldica shows the cinqfoil pierced and painted solid. In heraldry its use was minimal with the cinqfoil much preferred.  There is another version of a quatrefoil composed of four circles joined together, so I have added 'rectangular' to distinguish this variation.   Numbering Quire and pages Posted by: Wladimir D - 27-01-2017, 06:53 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk - Replies (32) I begin again this topic. Linda, JKP please restore up their posts. All owners of the Latin language. Please tell me in the labels Quire is used Latin abbreviations? The last character "q" - this abbreviation Quire? Why in the designation Quire19, Quire20 no reduction? So it was decided? Nick wrote.   (in the end of this post) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I think that the absence of reductions in labels Quire19, Quire 20 could be an argument for fact that label Quire 19, Quire 20, written simultaneously, but later than other labels Quire of 1-17, in already stitch up the manuscript. So the labels found themselves opposite each other.   Crypto history event in Bratislava in 2017: Voynich presentations welcome! Posted by: kschmeh - 26-01-2017, 09:15 PM - Forum: News - Replies (11) Hi all, I would like to draw your attention to a European crypto history event scheduled for May 2017: THE EUROPEAN HISTORIC CIPHERS COLLOQUIUM (Euro HCC) Bratislava, Slovakia May 18th and 19th, 2017 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. This conference is expected to be the largest European crypto history event ever. As a member of the program committee, I would like to encourage you to propose a presentation. Of course, presentations about the Voynich Manuscript are highly welcome. Maybe we can make the Euro HCC the most important Voynich event since the Voynich 100! So, if you have an interesting Voynich topic to talk about, please hand in an abstract. Klaus Schmeh   [split] Overlap between both "plants" sections Posted by: -JKP- - 13-01-2017, 07:20 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (7) [Edit KG: this thread was originally in reply to this one: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ] It's a good example, Linda. I guess I was reluctant to ID You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as okra because okra leaves are typically more palmate (and more evenly serrated), but there is another reason I was shying away from okra (perhaps I shouldn't have)... it's because there is a plant in the small-plants section that I think might be okra and it is drawn very differently from Plant 8r. Okra is distinctive for its pods and they grow on either side of the stalk in pairs, as depicted in this VMS drawing on folio 101v: Note how the illustrator chose to depict the most distinctive part of the plant. I suspect this is true for many of the other plants, based on studying them in depth for several years. So... I shied away from okra for 8r because the leaves of okra are more variable than distinctive (I could be wrong, 8r might be okra)... but consider that the leaves of Petasites are the most distinctive aspect of the plant. I'm fairly certain 101v : 4 is okra. I'm willing to acknowledge that 8r could also be okra but I'm leaning away from it. I know it could be argued that maybe the big-plants section emphasizes a different part of the plant than the small-plants section (e.g., maybe one is for identification and one is for identifying the useful part of the plant), but once again, I looked into this in-depth, as well and, as far as I can see, when plants are duplicated in the small-plants section, they are drawn pretty much same as their counterpart in the big-plants section. First Previous Next Last