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[split] Overlap between both "plants" sections - Printable Version

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[split] Overlap between both "plants" sections - -JKP- - 13-01-2017

[Edit KG: this thread was originally in reply to this one: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ]

It's a good example, Linda.

I guess I was reluctant to ID You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as okra because okra leaves are typically more palmate (and more evenly serrated), but there is another reason I was shying away from okra (perhaps I shouldn't have)... it's because there is a plant in the small-plants section that I think might be okra and it is drawn very differently from Plant 8r.

Okra is distinctive for its pods and they grow on either side of the stalk in pairs, as depicted in this VMS drawing on folio 101v:

[Image: image.jpg?q=f101v2-664-45-349-407]

Note how the illustrator chose to depict the most distinctive part of the plant. I suspect this is true for many of the other plants, based on studying them in depth for several years. So... I shied away from okra for 8r because the leaves of okra are more variable than distinctive (I could be wrong, 8r might be okra)... but consider that the leaves of Petasites are the most distinctive aspect of the plant.

I'm fairly certain 101v : 4 is okra. I'm willing to acknowledge that 8r could also be okra but I'm leaning away from it.

I know it could be argued that maybe the big-plants section emphasizes a different part of the plant than the small-plants section (e.g., maybe one is for identification and one is for identifying the useful part of the plant), but once again, I looked into this in-depth, as well and, as far as I can see, when plants are duplicated in the small-plants section, they are drawn pretty much same as their counterpart in the big-plants section.

RE: f8r - Koen G - 13-01-2017

(13-01-2017, 07:20 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I know it could be argued that maybe the big-plants section emphasizes a different part of the plant than the small-plants section (e.g., maybe one is for identification and one is for identifying the useful part of the plant), but once again, I looked into this in-depth, as well and, as far as I can see, when plants are duplicated in the small-plants section, they are drawn pretty much same as their counterpart in the big-plants section.

One of the things I am rather certain about (as far as certainty is allowed to exist in the Voynich world) is that the same plant can look vastly different between both sections. So I would strongly advise against using this as a determining factor.

My reasons for believing this are as follows:
- The plants that are exactly repeated are scarce. Would it even be 10%? 
- Not all plants in the small plant section are mnemonic-heavy, leaving room for some relatively normal depictions and hence repetition.
- The small plant section is generally more "honest" in drawing the fruits, while those tend to become very abstract or even hidden in the large plants. The Okra example would be an excellent illustration of that.
- Most importantly, both plant sections use different mnemonic systems. To quote Diane, they are not pictures of the plants, but about the plants. The large plant drawings are about the usefulness of the plants, while in my opinion the mnemonic-heavy small plants are about its indigenous name.

Imagine that the person who first made this disconnected all plant bits, threw them on a big pile, added some other stuff for the roots, and then carefully chose those parts he needed to cleverly convey his message. Both plant sections contain artificial constructs (as should be clear from the way the small "okra" plant looks), but these constructs have different purposes and hence look different.

RE: f8r - -JKP- - 13-01-2017

(13-01-2017, 08:40 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(13-01-2017, 07:20 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I know it could be argued that maybe the big-plants section emphasizes a different part of the plant than the small-plants section (e.g., maybe one is for identification and one is for identifying the useful part of the plant), but once again, I looked into this in-depth, as well and, as far as I can see, when plants are duplicated in the small-plants section, they are drawn pretty much same as their counterpart in the big-plants section.

One of the things I am rather certain about (as far as certainty is allowed to exist in the Voynich world) is that the same plant can look vastly different between both sections. So I would strongly advise against using this as a determining factor.
...
These are good reasons, but I'm going to stick with my feeling about this for the moment. Considering the years I've spent studying the plants, and that I knew quite a bit about plants before I knew about the VMS, obviously everything I've observed in the Ms cannot be summed up or demonstrated in a few words.

I do not believe that there is a strong overlap between the big-plant section and the small-plant section even though there is some overlap (including some plants-in-common that I've noticed that others have not yet identified). The small plants are often drawn slightly simpler due to space and probably also because it's not necessary to draw them in detail if they are already in the big-plants section.

I believe the big-plants and small-plants sections may have different functions, which is why there's no need for all of them to overlap. Again you could argue that the drawings are different because the functions are different, but my observations so far indicate to me that when the plant is duplicated, it's usually recognizable as the same plant.


Here are a couple of examples of root plant pairs that were easy to grab, but it works for leaf plants also:

37v and 101v1_102r2:
[Image: image.jpg?q=f37v-682-1097-830-835]  [Image: image.jpg?q=f101v1_102r2-701-535-301-315]


18v and 101v1_102r2

 [Image: image.jpg?q=f101v1_102r2-1284-606-417-250]  [Image: image.jpg?q=f18v-372-1337-1047-610]

These were drawn by someone who is methodical, "a creature of habit", as they say.

RE: [split] Overlap between both "plants" sections - Koen G - 13-01-2017

It would be quite interesting to list the duplicate plants and see whether there is a pattern. If I'm not mistaken there are also a number of partial duplicates, should we include those?

RE: [split] Overlap between both "plants" sections - Anton - 13-01-2017

I'd at once put a question in between. Are the duplicates depicted by the same hand or by different hands?

I have a suspicion that different sections of the VMS may have been illustrated by different people.

RE: [split] Overlap between both "plants" sections - -JKP- - 13-01-2017

(13-01-2017, 10:01 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'd at once put a question in between. Are the duplicates depicted by the same hand or by different hands?

I have a suspicion that different sections of the VMS may have been illustrated by different people.


I think they are mostly by the same hand. Not necessarily the paint, but the drawings. There are a few big plants that make me wonder if some are by a different hand, but overall... I think one person drew most of the plants.

RE: [split] Overlap between both "plants" sections - Koen G - 13-01-2017

(13-01-2017, 10:10 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think they are mostly by the same hand. Not necessarily the paint, but the drawings. There are a few big plants that make me wonder if some are by a different hand, but overall... I think one person drew most of the plants.

I must admit that there are like four or five large plants that make me think "wait, is this plant in the manuscript I've been studying for a year?" Big Grin
So I'd accept the possibility of different hands, though like you say there is a large stylistic continuity as well.

RE: [split] Overlap between both "plants" sections - Anton - 13-01-2017

No I mean large sections. Like botanical drawings by one hand, astro by another. I'll open a thread upon that probably.