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Welcome, Guest You have to register before you can post on our site. Username/Email:    Password    Remember me Search Forums (Advanced Search) Online Users There are currently 293 online users. » 7 Member(s) | 284 Guest(s) Bing, Google, joben, Mark Knowles Latest Threads Favorite Plant Tournament... Forum: Voynich Talk Last Post: MarcoP 18 minutes ago » Replies: 6 » Views: 184 New Decoder Forum: Voynich Talk Last Post: bi3mw 1 hour ago » Replies: 9 » Views: 873 Book Available on Amazon Forum: News Last Post: bi3mw 1 hour ago » Replies: 3 » Views: 168 Why not positional variat... Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: oshfdk 4 hours ago » Replies: 68 » Views: 8,001 Origin of the Shield Shap... Forum: Imagery Last Post: Dobri 9 hours ago » Replies: 100 » Views: 4,204 Big Red Weirdos Forum: Voynich Talk Last Post: Koen G Yesterday, 06:59 PM » Replies: 63 » Views: 45,062 f85v and 86(part): using ... Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: R. Sale Yesterday, 04:44 PM » Replies: 38 » Views: 2,670 Eleven Moon Phases in Fol... Forum: Astrology Last Post: Dobri Yesterday, 12:44 PM » Replies: 103 » Views: 8,940 Always impressive Forum: Fiction, Comics, Films & Videos, Games & other Media Last Post: Aga Tentakulus 11-05-2025, 11:28 PM » Replies: 14 » Views: 4,220 Solutions [discussion thr... Forum: Voynich Talk Last Post: davidd 11-05-2025, 10:16 PM » Replies: 55 » Views: 9,890

Where are the numbers? Posted by: Anton - 24-02-2017, 12:00 AM - Forum: Analysis of the text - Replies (9) The question "Where are the numbers in the VMS?" now and then is touched upon in Voynich discussions. I would suggest to turn this question into the direction of reverse engineering and transform it as follows: Where should we expect numbers in such manuscripts, to begin with? The reader will reasonably ask: "what "such" manuscripts"?" Well, I don't know. Let's judge by the graphical content. First of all, obviously, we would expect numbers in the page and quire numbering. They are there, indeed, but unfortunately they are in plain text, nothing special. There also is that strange f49v. What about other places where numbers would be appropriate?   The Oresme challenge Posted by: R. Sale - 23-02-2017, 09:08 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk - Replies (1) If the first rosette is a cosmos, what cosmos is it? With the plain nebuly line around it, the first choice might be Oresme, if that example is known. And there may be a better match to be discovered. But the details of this cloud band illustration are far more subtle in the Oresme illustration than what is seen in the frilly scallop patterns of de Pizan. The plain nebuly line in the first rosette does not have the level of detail found in Oresme or de Pizan. Such a pattern, with the full scallop-shell design, is found in the VMs central rosette. Hidden in plain sight, and when you know to ask for scallops, there they are. So, what's up with that? First off it seems that the combination of the central sphere of the first rosette and the full-on, blue-painted scallop pattern of the central rosette would produce an even stronger resemblance of the Oresme illustration. Second to none, as far as I've seen. But what we have is not combination, but separation. Why is that? And yet with a convenient closeness. In my view, this is the VMs creator's way of demonstrating a mastery over the artistic elements in the illustration by separating one from the other. This is a simple step to disguise and dissemble the obvious. The VMs is not a puzzle that will open at the first touch. Neither is it phased by a thousand pecks at its surface. The VMs creator has provided the parts, but the challenge is that it is up to the reader to put those parts together properly. If one accepts that the proposed VMs combination of center and circumference as a potential copy of Oresme, that is an interesting and reasonable possibility where additional information would certainly help. But if this is thought to be the extent of this situation, then something has been missed. The VMs is not a normal text that is read for information and instruction. The VMs is a text that poses questions. Can the reader put Oresme's cosmos back together again? For those of us who had never given Oresme's cosmos thought one, that is clearly a problem. "NOT KNOWING" the basis on which a visual analogy was made presents the researcher with a significant obstacle. Learning is changing one's mind.  But it's not just the analogy, it's also the methodology. The VMs is a puzzle because things are separated, things are disguised, things are hidden, things are not entirely identifiable by their appearance, but by the combination of appearance and the proper (traditional) location. And unlike appearance, location is objective according to tradition. .   Some letters aren't letters Posted by: ReneZ - 23-02-2017, 09:08 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text - Replies (36) I made the following statement elsewhere: (23-02-2017, 11:35 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Suggesting that some symbols represent vowels assumes that the symbols represent either letters or sounds. Both are natural assumptions, but I have very severe doubts about them. The following symbols:  q  f  p  m  y   are demonstrably not to be identified with letters. That's five out of (say) 25. How confident can one be that the others are? And even if they are, what to make of a mixture of letters and non-letters? This (naturally) caused some reactions. To discuss such things in a meaningful way is usually difficult, because, in order to be precise, one really has to write in great detail, and chances to be misunderstood or misinterpreted are always great. (23-02-2017, 06:47 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I do not know why the characters you state are "not to be identified with letters". I find absolutely no problem with both q and y being straightforward characters which represent phonemes. The characters f p m can be linked to other characters and have strong positional rules, suggestive of being variants. I would like to stress that, when I wrote "letters or sounds", for me these are two different things. Sounds = phonemes. With letters I mean characters of an alphabet, or as in German "Buchstaben". It is possible to show that the five I mentioned (but also the less frequent g ) are not representations of plain text characters, but the reasons (arguments) are different, and fall into three classes. The same arguments cannot necessarily be applied to the question whether these symbols could represent phonemes, so I specifically wrote "letters". However, there are also problems with that. Many proposed solutions of the Voynich MS text include a table that translates the Voynich symbols to plain text characters, and then present bits and pieces of plain text. (Note that "many proposed solutions" are not You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.   here. I am talking about specific cases, including solutions that I have received by Email over the years). If such a table maps the 5 or 6 characters in question to plain text characters (and especially if f p m g are not variants of other characters) there can be no doubt that this is wrong. There is (much) more to be said about this, but not right now.   A return to f25v - the dragon is the key, obviously, but is it basil? Posted by: david - 22-02-2017, 09:04 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (61) Well, I must admit that tonight it struck me that it could be basil, as I've been going through different plants that were associated with wyrms and their ilk. What really tipped me off was the mnemonic of the dragon. T.H. White makes mention of basil being an antidote to basilisks, and by extension, to other stinging worms such as scorpions and the like. He notes: Quote:Basil and Basilisk both derive from the same Greek root meaning Royal, so the one was presumed to be the antidote to the other. Turner's Herbal says: "it is goode for the stryking of a dragon or sea serpent". In White's 1954 translation of The Books of Beasts (a translation of a 12th century bestiary) the scribe mentions that basil is used to catch animals under the sign of Scorpio, as it is the active ingredient in the bait recipe given. Aldrovandus adds a recipe including basil to catch sea scorpions, as well as carp for some reason. The only thing stopping me from crowing here is that despite the obvious similarities in the crowned leaf arrangement of the depiction and original plant, basil leaves have a single distinctive central vein with arteries radiating out to the leafs edge, whilst the Voynich plant has multiple strong central veins with no radiating arteries. Can anyone think of a plausible reasoning for this? Is there a close family of the basil with these attributes, or do dried basil leaves go like this?   List of line-initial words that only appear line-initially? Posted by: nickpelling - 22-02-2017, 09:48 AM - Forum: Analysis of the text - Replies (8) Has anyone compiled a list of line-initial words that only appear line-initially? I was reminded of this by a 2008 Cipher Mysteries post (which I had inevitably forgotten about until stumbling over it yesterday) where I mentioned that Marke Fincher had pointed out to me that ycheo[-] and ysheo[-] only ever appear line-initially, along with something similar with dche[-]. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.   Does this nymph have a red nipple? Posted by: Koen G - 21-02-2017, 08:59 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (6) It seems like, before someone went over it in a darker ink, this nymph's nipple (viewer's right) was red. Or a red dot was added on top of the dark ink. I'd find it interesting if it were red, but since the ink has faded it's hard to see. What do you think? Also, if it is red, would this be the only nymph with such a feature? I shifted some values in photoshop that seemed to bring out the color more, and noticed that it does appear to be the same pigment as the blush on the cheeks. Maybe someone with more image editing skills knows of a better way to test this.   rednipple.jpg (Size: 161.63 KB / Downloads: 78) PS: this is important but I'd like to know your opinion before explaining why.   "Not knowing", or changing one's mind. Posted by: ReneZ - 18-02-2017, 08:28 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk - Replies (12) (15-02-2017, 05:38 PM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.History is not an exact science in the sense of chemistry or computing the ballistics or whatever you call it of satellites (sorry, Rene). I have no problem with that In fact, I think it is important to be able to accept that something is 'not known'. At least 'at the present time' and based on the available evidence.  That also happens all the time in the so-called exact sciences. While it may seem unsatisfactory not to be able to answer something, this may simply be the reality. The way forward is either to find more evidence, or accept that there is no way out of the situation. It is tempting to just 'decide' one way or the other what one prefers. This helps to get out of the unpleasant situation of not knowing. However, then one has to be able to change one's opinion whenever new or better information arises. The capability to reject one's own ideas when better ones arrive is what matters. This may be easier in exact sciences than in the humanities, because usually the evidence is much stronger and much more quantitative, and the mindset is therefore a different one. It is expected to happen a lot. Entrenching oneself with one's hypothesis against unpleasant evidence, and tactics like sweeping it under the carpet or discrediting their source are just not going to work for very long.   Scribal hands and Currier languages Posted by: Koen G - 14-02-2017, 08:20 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text - Replies (15) While writing my latest blog post, I read on Rene's site You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that Currier concluded that six to eight scribes wrote in the manuscript. That's main text, ignoring marginalia. I have no experience with telling apart different handwritings, so I thought I'd ask here. Has this been confirmed? Has anyone else studied this in detail?  Of how many hands can we be certain? Again, only considering core text, not marginalia or quire numbers. And how do the different hands correspond to Currier A and B?  And are we even certain about the clean distinction between these "languages" to begin with? The location of <aiin> and <ain> groups Posted by: ThomasCoon - 11-02-2017, 01:57 AM - Forum: Analysis of the text - Replies (22) Whenever I am analyzing the VMS text, I start with objective facts and then try to figure out the paradigm they fit into. Here is a fact about the placement of "aiin" and "ain": <aiin> and <ain> appear word-initial over 500 times but are never once line-initial. To me, this is an argument against the following theories: The Autocopying hypothesis: If the VMS scribe was just manufacturing text through autocopying, why is there this very strict rule about never placing <aiin> at the beginning of a line - especially when <aiin> can be the beginning of a word (or a standalone word) in at least five hundred other instances? Wouldn't we expect at least one occurrence of <aiin> beginning a line, instead of 500-to-0? The "Natural language" hypothesis: if Voynich is a natural language written in an unknown script, it would be odd that certain words can be found anywhere else in a paragraph but never at the beginning of a line of text (*note, I didn't say "beginning of a sentence")   Discuss!    Why the auto-copying hypothesis is not valid? Posted by: stellar - 09-02-2017, 05:01 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk - Replies (12) @ Torsten and all, Quote:With my app I only want to demonstrate that it is possible to generate a text with such features with a algorithm simulating my auto copy hypotheses. The main problem was to model human ingenuity in to the algorithm and to keep the algorithm as simple as possible. Therefore the algorithm only produces a pseudo text with features similar to the VMS. If I would generate the same text as in the VMS Emma would be right with her objection that my algorithm only reproduces the movements of the scribe. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. My major objection here comes from two competing theories Torstens' and what is done if vords represent numbers to words. How could and auto-copying produce meaning as in numbers from glyph's in a Zodiac and a cipher?  That would be impossible right!   Plus why would the Author of the VMS use the same glyphs for chives and fishes which fit into a strategy to setup a decoding process for the VMS.  The Author obviously intended to do what I have demonstrated here in this image below. Have I stumbled upon a cipher?  I have seen the copying process which is linked above to Torsten's app and eerily similar do the VMS but many vords are different. The demonstration for objection if this theory below shows a consistent Zodiac and then Pleiade, Aldebaran and Tauris.  How could an auto-copy do this? First Previous Next Last