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Welcome, Guest You have to register before you can post on our site. Username/Email:    Password    Remember me Search Forums (Advanced Search) Online Users There are currently 519 online users. » 7 Member(s) | 510 Guest(s) Bing, Google, joben, Paris, Petrasti Latest Threads Summary of Voynich Day pr... Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: MarcoP 39 minutes ago » Replies: 14 » Views: 6,215 A simple substitution exp... Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: ReneZ 44 minutes ago » Replies: 3 » Views: 64 VMs f75r - Nymph Holding ... Forum: Imagery Last Post: Petrasti 3 hours ago » Replies: 4 » Views: 1,381 Analysis of patterns at t... Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: Jorge_Stolfi 6 hours ago » Replies: 10 » Views: 462 Always impressive Forum: Fiction, Comics, Films & Videos, Games & other Media Last Post: Jorge_Stolfi 6 hours ago » Replies: 29 » Views: 8,733 Combination of pch glyphs Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: ReneZ Yesterday, 12:39 AM » Replies: 22 » Views: 12,548 [split] VMS mailing list ... Forum: Voynich Talk Last Post: Koen G 15-09-2025, 08:24 AM » Replies: 11 » Views: 381 Eleven Moon Phases in Fol... Forum: Astrology & Astronomy Last Post: Jorge_Stolfi 15-09-2025, 05:17 AM » Replies: 121 » Views: 21,641 Speculative fraud hypothe... Forum: Theories & Solutions Last Post: Jorge_Stolfi 15-09-2025, 03:50 AM » Replies: 87 » Views: 6,112 The journey into an unkno... Forum: Theories & Solutions Last Post: Petrasti 14-09-2025, 04:02 PM » Replies: 26 » Views: 2,665

Mapping the Manichaean suggestion in Voynich studies Posted by: Diane - 23-01-2018, 08:23 PM - Forum: Provenance & history - No Replies A thread which J.K.Petersen has just started informs us of a paper published a day or so ago by J. Michael Herrmann, entitled, 'The Cannabis Page of the Voynich Manuscript'. (by 'Cannabis page' he means  folio 16v.) In that paper the author says: Quote:Another  fascinating speculation could arise, if it turns out the the VM is of Manichaean origin And this makes me interested in the history of that 'Manichaean' idea in Voynich studies. When it started, whose bright idea it was and so on. Setting aside the textual problems caused by Latin Christianity's calling any sort of dualist belief 'Manichaean', where modern scholarship distinguishes Manichaeism from Catharism and Bogomilism etc.,  I'll accept any sort of 'Manichee' , though I use  Manichaean only in the stricter sense, myself. The first person I've found with any kind of 'Manichaean-ish' theory is Dr. Leo Levitov.  He was only talking about the western European 'Cathars' though.   Pelling, mentioning Levitov, refers readers to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of Levitov (October 10, 1998) -and a jolly good refutation it is too. Pelling  later reviewed a novel by Emery Borka (ciphermysteries.com, 23 November , 2011) where Cathars get a look in, but that doesn't count. In the interests of the historical record, the earliest (of 30) posts mentioning Manichaeism at voynichimagery is dated Sunday, July 22nd, 2012.  The post of   September 8th, 2012  speaks about Manichaeism in detail, includes a map of the region near Ghazni where (as I'd already said) Mani's Picture Book is said to have been preserved until the 11thC and so forth.  None of the 30 posts was about Cathars, or Bogomils;  only Manichaeism in the strict sense, and only the '5 elements' diagram on f.77 is said certainly to embody documented Manichaean beliefs. The most recent of the Manichaeism-related posts was  published on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. so, while those  posts were going up between 2012 and 1016.. On July 27, 2013,  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.reviewed the ideas of Morten St George  -  but once more, it was all about Cathars, not about Manichaeans as such.  M.St.George (realising the anachronism of 'Cathar' theory) linked it as component A to the O'Neill-Brumbaugh 'New World' theory  as component B, and had all the Cathars go west in the literal sense.  (Voynich studies consistently shows a quirky preference for anachonism over having to enter  any region, culture or period not  monotheistic). On Feb 12, 2014 ,  a new blog  'You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.'  began, carrying the slug, 'Voynich and Manichaean Studies', though not so much about studying Manichaeism, or studying Beinecke MS 408 as about another 'bee in the bonnet' theory - linguistic as well as other.   Could prove a good 'bee in the bonnet' - who knows?   The author's ideas are very close to those just published by J. Michael Herrmann, and the parallel extends to the list of references cited, which omit all 30 of my historical-cultural-iconographic discussions, of course.  Since Herrmann's paper is supposed to be about the written part of the text and its possible translation, though, I find it odd that he makes no mention  of Agnostic Voynich, or of Anton's papers or any other solid non-theory based study of the written text.   On October 30th, 2014 (10 PM) Darren Worley offered a long comment to Stephen Bax' site, summarising information (mostly from wiki articles) about various non-mainstream groups, from Essenes and Mandaeans to Bogomils and Cathars, merchants and others. A lot of it had been said before, but Worley puts it all into one neat outline, which is helpful.   23rd January 2018, Mr. Herrmann publishes his chapter online, speaking of a 'fascinating speculation... if Manichaean...'.  I don't know how Herrmann decides what is 'fascinating speculation' and what is 'a theory' or just fantasy and kite-flying, or what is a conclusion reached in the normal way by presenting analysis of the material and then the informed conclusion... but I suppose we'll find out.     That's as far as I've got mapping the history of a  'Manichaean'  element in Voynich studies.  Anyone able to add more?   So this is what a scallop looks like Posted by: Koen G - 22-01-2018, 09:35 AM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (7) I came across of an image of a scallop under water and it's really gross. Also, Voynich like:   scallop.jpg (Size: 123.38 KB / Downloads: 163)   F68r3 again Posted by: Andrew Harrington - 21-01-2018, 07:39 PM - Forum: Astrology & Astronomy - Replies (2) If you don't assume that he single star is something to do with Taurus and the group is the Pleiades then there is the possibility that the single star is one of note and the ring of stars is just for positioning.... Like Arcturus with the 7 stars next to it being the constellation Bootes (at about the 15 hour position). Then going clockwise you get Lyra (21 h), Perseus (3 h) and Cancer (9 h). Andrew   J. Michael Herrmann - Cannabis in the context of the Pahlavi hypothesis Posted by: -JKP- - 20-01-2018, 03:30 PM - Forum: News - Replies (9) There has been a flurry of recent Voynich "solutions", so I was curious about whether we had missed any and Googled "voynich solution"and found this paper just published yesterday from J. Michael Herrmann at the University of Edinburgh entitled "The Cannabis Page of the Voynich Manuscript". There's a fair amount of agreement on the identity of this plant. Quite a number of researchers have suggested Cannabis. To me it looks like cannabis as well. In fact, I had trouble coming up with good alternate IDs. Perhaps that's why the author chose it as an example for his theories about the text. The author believes the VMS "is written in a natural language" and states the following, indicating that he is referring to his previous paper on the Pahlavi hypothesis: "The present attempt builds on earlier work of the author on the Pahlavi hypothesis, but revises some of the claims made in the previous paper [7]." The link to the new article is here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.   Solution Paradigms Posted by: R. Sale - 20-01-2018, 12:38 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk - Replies (5) Potential explanations of the VMs group themselves into hypothetical paradigms of various types. One is the natural, ‘face-value’, it is what it appears to be – type of interpretation. And it assumes that the VMs really is an unknown language or it really is an extremely difficult cipher. But whatever it is, it is an earnest and genuine effort to communicate sensible, understandable information. Whatever it is, it is valid and authentic, even if it really is an extremely difficult cipher for an unknown language.   Another view is just the opposite. The VMs is not an earnest effort to communicate any sensible, understandable information. To the contrary of the first paradigm, the VMs makes no sense. It is pure nonsense. It was never intended to make any sense. However, a closer examination reveals a variety of interesting features in the VMs language and the illustrations. Is it too complex to be nonsense? Or, perhaps, it is possible to make patterned nonsense –either accidentally or on purpose. And in the end, the absence of sense cannot be proven anyway.   A third alternative, recently proposed, is that the VMs is a modern forgery. It is suggested that all the problematic irregularities from the two previous paradigms correlate with the sort of idiosyncratic errors and mistakes that are found in forgery. But forgeries are made to be familiar and similar to known examples. They are not made to be strange, exotic and incomprehensible like the VMs.   One of the first things in the investigation of a totally unreadable text, such as the VMs, is to go through the illustrations and see what is there to be seen and to compare it with what is known to the investigator. The first data is visual and pictorial, the comparisons found depend on the individual researcher, and the assumption is that visual similarity indicates correspondence. When the author wishes to indicate correspondence between one of the VMs illustrations and an earlier representation of the same sort of image, then visual similarity would seem to be the presumptive technique. The author would attempt to present a visual replica of the selected, historical prototype in order to indicate such correspondence.   That is the standard practice. That is the practice many have presumed. But what if there are other factors involved? What if a strong visual similarity is something that is not desired? Is there a way to indicate a comparative correspondence that does not rely entirely on visual similarity? Rather than create visual similarity with the expectation of correspondence and recognition, is it possible to produce correspondence and recognition by some other means?   This suggests a forth type of hypothetical solution paradigm. This paradigm is based on visual deception, intentional visual deception, and then recognition based on other factors. Those factors include placement and structure. Similar structure and placement comparable with that of medieval art is significant. However, the element essential for the comparison is to have identified a source that represents the proper, historical prototype for a particular VMs reproduction.   There is a world of difference for the task of paradigm comparison when this historical prototype is real and specifically indentified, rather than some hypothetical proposal. It is an uncommon event in VMs investigation to be able to present a historical prototype for a particular VMs image. The prime example for this (IMO) is the matching of the Oresme cosmic illustration (BNF fr 565) with the VMs version from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (E. Velinska, 2014). Through the comparison of the Oresme prototype with the VMs replica, it can be seen that a certain methodology has been employed to create a new solution paradigm. The new solution paradigm is based on deception and recognition. The deception is visual. It is created by using different methods of representation to illustrate the same thing.   Consider this description. This cosmic illustration is quite unusual, when compared with the standard medieval representations of the geocentric model. The general cosmic diagram of that type follows the familiar ‘music of spheres’ format. The cosmos in question here is much simpler. The round earth is at the center of the cosmos. It appears to be represented in the manner of an inverted T-O construction, as is generally found in the three-fold division of the classical elements of air, earth and water, with water consistently in the bottom half. Around the earth is the starry sky. The earth is surrounded by stars. And the whole image is enclosed in an artistic structure, conventional to the medieval period, that was used to represent a cloudy band.   Which representation fits this description? It could be either one – the Oresme or the VMs. Yet the visual differences between the two images are significant. The earth is an inverted T-O diagram in both, with water, earth and air represented pictorially in Oresme, but presumably labeled in the VMs. The starry field in Oresme is a lighter medium blue, while VMs blue is darker and much augmented by black inclusions to produce a better representation of the night sky. The stars themselves, which are naturally scattered in Oresme, have all been artificially lined up in a rough circle by the VMs artist. This is an obvious, visual difference, a distinctive indicator, but both examples still clearly fit the description of an earth surrounded by stars.   The third part of the cosmic structure, the outer shell, the cloudy band is a prime example of visual extremes. Contrast the ornate and elaborately detailed, scallop-shell patterned, blue and white painted, perfectly circular cloud band in the Oresme representation with the wobbly, meandering, sloppy looking, plain ink line of the VMs image. They could hardly be further apart in their appearance. But, once this line pattern from the VMs can be shown to correspond quite well with the traditionally defined, heraldic example of a nebuly line, then the etymology of the name makes it clear that, despite such strong visual differences, both of these parts perform the same, corresponding function by definition. Note that the VMs does contain a cloud band representation visually comparable to the Oresme example as part of the Central Rosette.   So far then, the three parts, a central earth, stars and cloud band, correspond in location and produce equivalent structures despite their significant visual differences. Now the singular presence of the textual banners forming a large wheel with curved spokes around the VMs representation is actually a further confirmation of the intentional creation of visual deception. Simply put, these textual banners are ephemeral. They are not physical objects. They do not exist. They have been used to create a significant, additional, visual difference, but they count for nothing in the cosmic structure. They provide further confirmation of the solution paradigm based on deception and recognition [visual deception and traditional structural recognition].   Recognition is another issue altogether. Recognition will only occur when the proper historical prototype is known. And when it is not known, it needs to be discovered – not an easy task. Such discovery has proven rather difficult, hence the significance of the simplified, Oresme-style of cosmic representation as the historical prototype for the VMs cosmic replication. Here is the example where it can be clearly shown that, despite significant visual differences, the parts correspond in their functions to produce the same, uncommon type of cosmic structure. Hence this is a clear example of the new solution paradigm based on visual deception and structural recognition. What other solution paradigm has provided a clear example of how it functions? And that is an example that is not hypothetical, but actually exists in the Oresme comparison.   The deception and recognition interpretation, as a solution paradigm, demonstrates further confirmation in the dualistic representation of an optical illusion on VMs White Aries. Visual deception, created through illusion and ambiguity, disguises the historical origins of a known religious tradition, one that is repeatedly confirmed through traditional placement and heraldic canting. This is how the VMs needs to be understood in order to be properly investigated. Visual similarity may be insufficient, even confusing, by intent. That is how things were hidden. That is how this version of Oresme’s cosmos was hidden. The important part is to recognize the reality underneath, as supported by traditional structural and positional correspondence. And that reality is supplied only by the proper historical prototype, through the use of the proper solution paradigm. That is what this cosmic comparison demonstrates. The solution paradigm of deception and recognition is not hypothetical, like the others. It actually functions. Deception is recognized. Trickery is revealed. This allows us to understand the process of conversion that goes from prototype to VMs replica. It relies on the intentional creation of visual difference without contradicting the essential features and functions of the historical prototype. And since the VMs artist was specifically selective, in the choice of historical prototypes, and intentionally deceptive in their depiction, much of modern investigation, in its search for visual identity, tends to see either some disqualifying error or nothing at all, as was the case prior to the important, cosmic discovery and comparison examined in this discussion. Now that situation can be reversed. Now the paradigm of trickery has been proposed, revealed, examined in detail and demonstrated by example. Are there any questions?   There is a saying by Francis Bacon, that God took delight to hide his works, to the end to have them found out. This same motivation has been employed by the creator of the VMs, who has hidden historical events, religious tradition and scientific information of the medieval era in the VMs illustrations.   MILJOHN RUPERTO & ULRIK HELTOFT, VOYNICH BOTANICAL STUDIES Posted by: Searcher - 19-01-2018, 09:57 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk - Replies (3) Very nice, as for me! Exhibition : You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.   f5v - a strange parallel Posted by: Koen G - 18-01-2018, 12:53 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (7) I came across an image of fol. 11r, grapevine, from the 13thC Arabic Dioscorides. Its polished style and page layout are reminiscent of the Vienna Dioscorides. When I saw the image and mentally converted the painting style to that of the VM, I realized why it seemed familiar. Compare it to VM f5v:   hmm.jpg (Size: 137.3 KB / Downloads: 239) Now first of all, these are clearly different plants. The Dioscorides plant has grapes, tendrils and a generic root, while the VM plant has flowers, no fruit and a strange root. So consider this a stylistic/formal parallel, not a proposed plant ID. There's a confusing contradiction here, because while the plants are clearly different they are also almost the same. First there's the page layout. Large drawing, text hugging the top of the plant (but obviously the Arabic text is right to left). Then there's the shading of the leaves. Both drawings show various shades being used, for individual leaves as well as within the same leaf. One would almost think that the Dioscorides reveals the effect the VM painter was aiming for with his limited possibilities.   shading.jpg (Size: 84.43 KB / Downloads: 235) The shape of the leaves is also similarly variable in both drawings. Some have five fingers, some three. Some are cross-shaped, others look like butterflies. The veins and leaf edges are similar too. "Partners" in shape, orientation and relative brightness can be found for most leaves, some examples:   leaves.jpg (Size: 85.1 KB / Downloads: 235) The habit of the plants is similar, though the VM plant does some things which are biologically impossible (branches rejoining). Both plants have exactly 21 leaves. I'd intuitively dismiss this as a coincidence. But there is a possibility that the VM illustration of plant x relied heavily on a Dioscorides illustration of the grapevine. In that case, it's no coincidence. Once again, I'm not arguing that these are the same plants, nor that the VM plant was directly copied from this Arabic Dioscorides. But there does seem to be some link between both images.   Foldout85v-86r imagery explained Posted by: Mutemandeafcat - 15-01-2018, 06:56 AM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (4) I created a better post describing the imagery.  I don't think there is any denying my explanation of the graphics, and I thought that would excite the crypto sleuths, who are always looking for word clues.  I think I provide many clues, for many words. Always interested in logical criticism, and hoping for dialogue. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.   f13r - banana? Posted by: Koen G - 11-01-2018, 12:58 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (47) The only proposed ID for You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I've seen so far was in a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. by Diane arguing that it's some kind of banana. I'd like to know whether others share this opinion or if there are other possibilities. In my opinion banana seems reasonable, and if it were so, the image would even be (relatively!) realistic. And naturalistic, without obvious symbolic elements. The image especially seems to capture well how a banana plant is propagated. A mother plant will grow suckers (see image above), little plants that grow next to it on the same base (corm). These can then be separated and planted elsewhere as a new banana plant. Instructions on how to achieve the best results are that the sucker has to include a good amount of corm. The leaves and roots are often trimmed, as shown in the diagram below: It was the following image which reminded me of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and made me look up more about bananas. These are suckers separated from the mother and prepped for planting:   Untitled-1.jpg (Size: 77.35 KB / Downloads: 408) The color of the stem base depends on the species (which are many) but white-pink-red-brown shades are very common. Then I did some more research; an important thing to know when growing bananas is the distinction between a "water sucker" and a "sword sucker". Water suckers are useless for replanting; they develop wide leaves early on, but will develop an inferior root system. Sword suckers appear as a spike, but they develop sturdy roots. The image below shows an undesired water sucker on the left and two sword suckers on the right. It looks as if the VM drawing might communicate something about the type of root that is to be preferred.   swordvswater.jpg (Size: 69.69 KB / Downloads: 408) When a banana plant has been cut to a stump (or a stump has been replanted) a new leaf will grow from the centre, eventually growing out to a new plant. It's remarkable how this is again reflected in the VM drawing:   stump.jpg (Size: 123.44 KB / Downloads: 467) Finally, when considering the fruit, it's important to keep in mind that the bananas-on-steroids we see on store shelves today are different than the varieties known originally; also, bananas ripening on the tree have an appearance quite like what we see in the VM:   fruit.jpg (Size: 85.22 KB / Downloads: 399)   Final Thoughts on the Foldout Posted by: Mutemandeafcat - 09-01-2018, 09:08 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (2) Curious how controversial this will be.  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. First Previous Next Last