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the 9 or g - Davidsch - 11-09-2017
Paleographical exercise on the handwriting in the Voynich
There are reasons to believe that the handwriting of the Voynich is deliberately obfuscated by the scribe. duh.
At present my focus lies on the [9] or Eva [y].
I assume that the [9] is actually the number nine and I want to try to build some paleographical proof for that.
Here a piece of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is shown. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
[attachment=1655]
In the circle we see the character [9 nine] but it is clear that the [c] was made first and then the [j-stroke].
Normally when one writes a [g] this is done...eh thank you Mr.brock (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
always starting at the top, going down, up (don't take the pencil of the page !) and do a tail.
Here the [9 nine] is done like one would write a number nine: exactly the same as writing [g],
however because we do NOT want the tail to have an extra curve on the end, we slow the pen down deliberately. for example You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The last exercise is more in line with the [9 nine], which we see in the VMS and therefore the chance based on this alone, if higher that a nine-character is meant and not a g-character. True?
Secondly, in my experience it is easier, with a quill pen, to write a [g] without taking the pen of the paper, and it is harder to write a [cj=9 nine] as explained. (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) True?
RE: the 9 or g - MarcoP - 11-09-2017
Hi David,
in my opinion, the closest parallel for EVA:y y is the well known Latin abbreviation that looks like a 9 and typically reads "cum-/con-" as a prefix and "-us" as a suffix.
One could make a similar, or possibly stronger, argument for EVA:d d that looks like an 8.
I believe both symbols are meant to have a phonetic value (or possibly different phonetic values depending on context). I don't think they have any particular connection with Arabic numerals, but I am open to the possibility that whoever invented the alphabet also used Arabic numerals for inspiration, together with Latin characters and Latin abbreviations.
RE: the 9 or g - Emma May Smith - 11-09-2017
Davidsch, I think you're attacking the problem in the wrong way. You're asking what a character looks like to give you a clue to what it might mean. But appearances are both 1) subjective, so that people have different opinions, and 2) deceptive, so that even if it looked like something it doesn't mean that it is that thing. Even if you become convinced that this character is a 'g' or a '9', it means little to other researchers.
I think that a broader question is more useful and answers your point: is this character a numeral, with a number value, or a letter, with a sound value? The answer is that it cannot be a numeral alone, as the script has too many characters (and works in the wrong way) to be a numeral system. It might also not be a letter only, as there are no obvious numerals and so letters may double up as numerals.
RE: the 9 or g - -JKP- - 11-09-2017
I really don't have much doubt that the shape is based the Latin abbreviation symbol historically associated with the number 9 (in Latin text written in Carolingian script, and later in proto-Gothic and Gothic scripts, most of these abbreviations are based on numbers, especially 2, 3, 4, 7, and 9).
They used 9 so it wouldn't be confused with the letter "g" and if you look at medieval text, you can see there are always slight differences between the abbreviation-9 and the way the g is written, a difference that is also evident in the VMS. G is not typically written this way, it has a serif on the top-right and in the less-common instances when it doesn't, it usually has a squared-off tail compared to an arced tail—for the same reason, to distinguish it from a 9.
Whoever added the Catalan?/Occitan? month labels to the zodiacs used this abbreviation symbol several times at the ends of the month names to represent -us. It was one of the most common abbreviations in all scribal-dom at the time.
As for paleographic evidence, besides the fact that it lacks a serif and has the wrong shape for the tail, there are several places in the VMS where the scribe wrote it superscripted (probably out of habit). In the earlier centuries it was usually superscripted. In the 15th century, some scribes wrote it superscripted and others wrote it inline and some wrote it both ways, but it meant the same thing.
Notice in this example how the scribe usually writes it inline, but occasionally writes it slightly above the line (in many manuscripts it is placed much higher). Notice also how the number 2 is used in a similar way (most of the time 9 means con- com- -us -um and 2 usually means -ur or -tur).
RE: the 9 or g - Davidsch - 11-09-2017
@Emma, I already know where I am heading, this approach is for "building evidence" not for "finding solutions".
RE: the 9 or g - VViews - 11-09-2017
Hi Davidsch,
I note that you have posted this in the "physical material" section of the forum, rather than analysis of the text, which leads me to believe your question relates to the way the character was physically drawn, with ink and quill, on the vellum, rather than to the meaning of y.
I agree that the y character is composed of a c and a j stroke. This has been observed before, of course.
This is why I don't see how the video examples you give are relevant. I have watched both of the videos you linked to, and they both use an o with a straight or curved tail. Neither uses a c shape as the base.
So, if you are asking me to choose between your two video examples, personally I would have to say "neither".
I think the scribe based his movements on the ones needed to produce the abbreviation MarcoP and JKP refer to in their replies, which, as JKP explains, is based on a 9. But not a 9 written using the hand movements shown in the video you link to (o + l ). A 9 based on a c + j movement.
In your sample text, the spacing between the two strokes makes it looks like the Voynich scribe wrote an e and then went back to change it to a y, somewhat sloppily adding the downstroke. He made another correction in the vord just below the one you circled. Maybe he was getting tired.
RE: the 9 or g - -JKP- - 11-09-2017
(11-09-2017, 08:34 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
A 9 based on a c + j movement.
Yes.
RE: the 9 or g - -JKP- - 11-09-2017
I can't do an exhaustive search right now, but here are some examples I pulled from my files to indicate how the "g" shapes and "9" shapes (as a number and as an abbreviation) were typically written in Gothic hands. Note that Italic is a different style but the same general principles apply in the way the g was written to distinguish it from number 9 and abbreviation 9:
![[Image: ExamplesGand9.png]](http://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/ExamplesGand9.png)
You can ignore the Roman numeral in the third column. I didn't have time to filter it out. This was a quick grab.
One thing that's interesting is that even early medieval texts used these shapes, consistent with Arabic numerals, as abbreviations, even though many were still using Roman numerals in the main text and for foliation and charts.
RE: the 9 or g - Wladimir D - 12-09-2017
Unfortunately, I cannot vote for either of the two options. My opinion, "9" is biglif ([font=Tahoma, sans-serif]e+) )![/font]
[font=Tahoma, sans-serif]
RE: the 9 or g - -JKP- - 12-09-2017
(12-09-2017, 06:04 PM)Wladimir D Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Unfortunately, I cannot vote for either of the two options. My opinion, "9" is biglif ([font=Tahoma, sans-serif]e+) )![/font]
Certainly, it might be a ligature in Voynichese in terms of meaning or relationship to the other shapes, but I am pretty confident the origin of the shape is based on the Latin 9 abbreviation.
Look at where it is placed in the VMS... exactly the same as Latin... mostly at the ends of words, occasionally at the beginnings of words, and rarely in the middle and, just as is done in Latin, it is sometimes superscripted. It might even be a null, added to make Voynichese look like Latin.