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| Possibility of Hail in the Middle Right Rosette |
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Posted by: MichelleL11 - 27-02-2022, 02:58 AM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (3)
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I wanted to come back and share my results in attempting to connect the numerous round, blue circles of the middle right rosette with a representation of hail.
I admit to preferring to look at the image with the script "rightway up" -- and that could be wrong. Please note that such preferences can be represented as intrinsic evidence, that is -- evidence that comes from within the manuscript itself. I do find intrinsic evidence to have more weight than extrinsic evidence, so that is why I am presenting the rosette in this format.
However, in the rest of these arguments, I am relying on extrinsic evidence, that is to say other representations outside the VM of as similar as possible imagery. In my opinion, we don't have another example in the manuscript of this precise kind of circular images. And let's be realistic, even if this exact kind of thing was used multiple times within the manuscript, it's all speculation.
I began my extrinsic evidence search, as suggested by Koen, with a look through representative Apocalypse illustrations. Many did not represent the hail of Revelation 16:17-21 at all, or if they did represent hail, it was much more like enlarged raindrops than hail, necessarily. Here are three examples of ones showing this kind of shape that I found:
The Apocalypse of 1313, BNF, Paris, Fr. 13096, f.54r
Dublin Apocalypse, f.25r; IE TCD MS64
Abingdon Apocalypse, Add MS 42555, 3rd quarter of 13th century, French, f.61v
In searching for representations of hail in medieval manuscripts, it also became obvious that limiting to this precise part of the Bible (e.g. the pouring of the seventh vial) didn't necessarily make sense. Here is a representation of hail illustrating another part of Revelation (although combination illustrations are very common, so this might be Rev 16:21 in part) and is closer to what is in the VM in shape, if those blue circles are hail.
The Cloisters Apocalypse, ca. 1330, Normandy, FR, Cloisters, NYC, 68.174, f.20r
The one example I found of explicitly Rev 16:21 and showing regular circular hail is below:
Apocalypse between 1255 and 1360, England and France, London MS M.524 fol. 16r
I could likely find more (as well as more not fitting this scenario) but at this point I had spent the time I had. These last two examples, using very regular circles, do lend some decent support to at least some tradition of using the same exact shape for hail -- so I don't see this possibility as eliminated and I do see it as at least partially supported.
The other issue to be examined is the blue color as the two "regular circle" examples I have show the hail as uncolored -- e.g., just outlines showing through the background color in their centers.
On this question, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has published explicit academic work on the use of color in the Beatus commentary. This work is limited to the Beatus tradition, a particular commentary on the Apocalypse with origins in Spain. If you followed this other You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. you can learn more about Beatus. This is what she had to say about the color of hail in the 27 copies of this type of Apocalypse representations, and the footnote cites specific examples of the colors that she recorded:
But it's not only in the Beatus commentary that hail is often white. Although this is not illustrating Revelation -- here is some white hail illustrating the plague of hail in Exodus 9:19
Weltchronik, Germany, Regensburg, ca. 1360, MS M.769 f. 81v.
Importantly, it wasn't until I extended my search outside of explicit Apocalypse manuscripts into those medieval illustrations that are merely "influenced" by Revelation that I started to see a larger number of consistently parallel illustrations.
The greatest amount of discussion of circular hail I found was by those interested in Tarot card history. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is an example posting that discusses this type of imagery at relative length. A Tarot researcher in this string represented circular hail as a long standing and extremely well known visual tradition from multiple countries -- and the general fact that it comes up in Tarot cards, known for using established, wide-spread imagery that is selected for immediate and emotional impact, supports this.
I know that Marco has delved into Tarot cards as including possible VM related imagery and I see circular hail as another example of this --- not sure if hail came up in his studies.
In this case it is the Tower card that commonly illustrates hail, particularly in the earliest cards. This image provides a composite image of a number of the earliest known Tower cards that often feature various colored circular hail.
Granted, even the earliest of these cards is well after the carbon dating. Left most Tower card is only partial and from the "Cary Sheet"
-- this is part of a sheet of uncut set of cards housed in the Cary collection at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and is considered ca. 1500. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a short article about the sheet that doesn't really delve into the Tower card but is a useful introduction. The poster in the linked string even asserted that a tradition of such shapes may be well known in the German woodcut early printed books, which I found interesting, but that research will be for another day.
Conclusion: So, in my opinion, the strongest and most consistent evidence for the use of regular round circle outlines, possibly blue colored or some other color than white, to represent hail appears most clearly in the image history of Tarot cards, specifically the Tower card, which is thought to be highly influenced by Apocalypse based imagery. In timing, this is well after the VM carbon date. However, stereotypic imagery, such as that used in Tarot cards, had to come from somewhere, so I do think it is a good bet that round circles would evoke hail in a medieval viewer. And the VM round circles seem to be filling up the "earthly plain" (e.g., not in the heavens which is bounded by the nebuly line) also supporting the possibility this is an "earthly" issue such as enormous hail would be. But it remains that this representation is far from universal and is, admittedly, just a possibility (as with everything in the VM). However, I did come away from this work with the feeling that it is a distinct, supported possibility and did enjoy learning more about early Tarot cards. Thanks for reading!
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| Historical Context |
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Posted by: GeoffreySea - 25-02-2022, 06:46 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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I'm new here and am prepared to shock you all by announcing that I do NOT have any new translation of the text. `My apologies.
I am a historian with some expertise in Khazar studies. What I do have is new information about the historical context that would support the manuscript being a Khazar alchemical work. My hypothesis is that it was recopied in the 15th century from a much earlier Khazar original.
I'm not prepared to announce my contextual information here as I am preparing that for publication. What I am seeking is any information that would confirm or refute the idea that the text is Khazar language encoded (reversed). I realize there is no consensus on this but perhaps when my contextual information is made public, there could be consensus.
I am familiar with the Yokubinas interpretation that it is Khazar but I have not seen any other opinions about that. I have also seen the announcements about the "Old Turkic" interpretation and am wondering if Khazar would fit the meaning of "Old Turkic." (I do have some expertise in classifying Khazar language.)
I will say that assumptions that the text came through Byzantine channels are wrong and the context I have discovered is non-Byzantine.
I will add, if it's helpful, that there is new information that Khazar language was close to Crimean Tartar and Karachay language but ancestral to both of those. It would not be very close to Turkish except in general structure.
I'm very willing to work with other scholars on this.
Feel free to e-mail me at GeoffreySea@gmail.com
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| Wreath of the Virgin |
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Posted by: R. Sale - 21-02-2022, 01:01 AM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (9)
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In reading bits about medieval religion over the last few days, particularly the rise of Mariology during the VMs C-14 dates, I've seen several articles that mention the Wreath of the Virgin. As the story goes, when the Virgin Mary died, at her funeral, a wreath was place on her breast - a wreath of red, white and sky-blue flowers.
"Elles mirent sur la poitrine une couronne de fleurs blanches, rouges et bleu de ciel, symbole de la virginité."
Not known what the original source is for this information.
Looking for artistic representations has not been productive. Peter Paul Rubens has shown two angels carrying a wreath to place on Mary's head, but the wreath is small, dark and nondescript. Also, the French terminology is a bit problematic, not all wreaths are crowns.
So, what about wreaths in the VMs? Here is the middle image from the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - f86v6 series.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
It looks like a wreath to me, always has. And in the center - a crescent moon. Perhaps that is also a hint to recognize Mary as the woman standing on the moon. // Woman of the Apocalypse // VMs Virgo
There is blue, but no red in the VMs illustration. However, given the poor search results for relevant artistic illustrations, there really isn't a better representation (yet). On its own, this may seem to be another flimsy connection, but in combination with the growing number of subtle religious references turning up in the VMs, perhaps this might be considered more seriously. Perhaps the depiction of the wreath was considered as a symbol for the Virgin Mary. After all, the last time a wreath was dedicated to the Virgin was by Pope Francis in Nov. 2021. It's an annual event.
And what about that circular text? What could that be?
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| Part of Zodiac was added later? |
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Posted by: februs - 20-02-2022, 11:32 PM - Forum: Astrology & Astronomy
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hi I am Japanese, so I don't good English.
if you can't understand my sentence, please ask me feel free.
I knowed somewhere that part of Zodiac in VM was added later.
the first, it made 66 pages plants and so on.
the later, part of Zodiac and astronomy pages added in VM.
is this really? if it is so, please tell me the reason.(*- -)(*_ _)ペコリ
and I am makeing voynich video in youtube.
so I am seaching about it, and I finded here.
I read some thread(I read almost)
I was fun.((´∀｀*))ヶﾗヶﾗ
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| No text? A visual code! |
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Posted by: R. Sale - 18-02-2022, 08:45 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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There was a lot of visual code in place in the relevant (C-14) Middle Ages. Part of that visual code was heraldry. Heraldry is clearly a part of the VMs. The cosmic nebuly line speaks for itself. And otherwise, heraldic connections might be a bit obscure and hard to read. The difficulties here are twofold, in the ambiguity of the source (VMs) and in the historical obscurity of the reference. Heraldry is doubly disadvantaged, but, unlike astrology and alchemy and medieval mumbo-jumbo, it is a relatively simple topic with fixed interpretations. In other words, a code. A code that could identify individuals and families and their noble ancestry and royal ranking, and ecclesiastical orders and ranking as well, without the use of the spoken or written word. A code. And not just through recognition, but in various cases through heraldic canting.
As to the text, there's plenty of it. No shortage there. Some attempts at interpretation remain in limbo, the rest have fallen through the grate. Various attempts to interpret the data occur, but they are lacking the direction for any specific examples of text. The VMs drawings may relate to the stars, but can they relate to and designate specific segments of text? In deed, they can. Heraldry is a visual code that gives the VMs historical grounding and textual specificity in combination.
Analysis of the VMs text, will depend on methodology. But the other part is selection of the specimen to be analyzed.
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| Why is the Rosettes page much larger than any other page? |
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Posted by: Mark Knowles - 03-02-2022, 03:07 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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The Rosettes page takes up 6 sides of the manuscript. There are other foldouts in the manuscript, but each side of those is like a separate page, so the Rosettes features by far and away the largest single image. A page this size is more costly than 6 individual sheets, because it requires a larger piece of vellum.
One could ask why the author(s) needed such a large sheet for the rosettes drawing, could the drawing fit on a smaller sheet without loss of detail? Was the topic particularly important that it merited a large sheet? Presumably the large sheet was purchased specifically for the purpose of the Rosettes drawing.
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