The Voynich Ninja

(18-11-2016, 01:59 AM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Dear Witch Mountain,

Many Bibles have different translations as you know.

Here is one which uses beasts.

Why would Dee encrypt Bible passages that were known by rote by everyone in the Christianized world?

(18-11-2016, 02:33 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(18-11-2016, 01:59 AM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Dear Witch Mountain,

Many Bibles have different translations as you know.

Here is one which uses beasts.

Why would Dee encrypt Bible passages that were known by rote by everyone in the Christianized world?

My best guess would be filler.  Or he felt it was important to add in.  Maybe he was intrigued by the story of the Garden of Eden.  The VMS does have many plants.

(18-11-2016, 02:46 AM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(18-11-2016, 02:33 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(18-11-2016, 01:59 AM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Dear Witch Mountain,

Many Bibles have different translations as you know.

Here is one which uses beasts.

Why would Dee encrypt Bible passages that were known by rote by everyone in the Christianized world?

My best guess would be filler.  Or he felt it was important to add in.  Maybe he was intrigued by the story of the Garden of Eden.  The VMS does have many plants.

Filler doesn't have to be encrypted—it can be random or semi-random. You are claiming it's encrypted. You didn't actually answer the question.

Why encrypt something everyone knows? Being intrigued by something doesn't mean it has to be encrypted. Dee liked to write real books, things people could understand. And there's certainly no reason to encrypt filler... it's too time-consuming, when sem-random will suffice for filler.

JKP,

Seeing how we all know the VMS is a tough crack which is beside the point.  The question you pose I believe is silly.  If Dee was interested in the Garden of Eden and the story of the Fall of man,  I see no reason why not, or he could encrypt anything he felt like.  With all the plants in the VMS maybe it adds artistic flair.  After all Dee saw his woman with Kelly and maybe he was affected by that.

Why did I encrypt your paragraph, it contained information that's why.  JKP, anytime you encrypt anything its time consuming and another point which I find silly from you.

I also believe since their are two crosses in the VMS that it does have a spiritual Christian side to it.

(18-11-2016, 03:06 AM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.JKP,

Seeing how we all know the VMS is a tough crack which is beside the point.  The question you pose I believe is silly.  If Dee was interested in the Garden of Eden and the story of the Fall of man,  I see no reason why not, or he could encrypt anything he felt like.  With all the plants in the VMS maybe it adds artistic flair.  After all Dee saw his woman with Kelly and maybe he was affected by that.

Why did I encrypt your paragraph, it contained information that's why.  JKP, anytime you encrypt anything its time consuming and another point which I find silly from you.

I also believe since their are two crosses in the VMS that it does have a spiritual Christian side to it.

Two crosses? One of those crosses is on a crown. That's how crowns were designed. If you want to represent a specific person, like the emperor or empress, you have to draw the crown a certain way. It may not have anything whatsoever to do with Christianity as far as the person who drew it was concerned.

Stellar, I don't think I'm going to bother with your posts any more.

Here is why:

Assumption #1: You say Dee did it, even though he was born a century after the probable creation of the manuscript and his hand does not match well to the VMS hand.
Assumption #2: It is numerology (you still haven't shown any proof, only loose "translations" that could be done in any language).
Assumption #3: Even if it is numerology, you have arbitrarily assigned values to the VMS characters. No proof that they are the correct assignations.
Assumption #4: It is Welsh. No proof of this either. In fact, Thomas got more "hits" when using a different language.
Assumption #5: The text matches the images. No one has any proof of this. Your interpretations of the text are based on your assumptions about the images which, in themselves, are open to question. There's no proof or even strong evidence that the big plant with the serpentine creature in the root is the story of Eden. It might be a worm rather than a snake.
Assumption #5: The manuscript has a Christian side. Very flimsy evidence. Crosses were used in non-Christian imagery as well, and also by non-Christians living in Christian societies where the cross was a prevalent icon. The pool creature doesn't look like a whale and the nymph doesn't look like Jonah. It might be a biblical story but there are good arguments from other researchers that it might something else which I suggested you read, but apparently you didn't.

And there are more, but there are already too many assumptions to take any of this seriously, since all you do is defend your assumptions by adding more, rather than re-evaluating them.

Stellar

The best characteristic of a Voynich researcher is, in my opinion, the realisation that everything he believes about the manuscript, no matter how much evidence he tinks he has amassed, can be absolutely wrong. 

The worst problem with your theory is that, with some creativity, the translator can make it into whatever he wants. If I wanted to make it say - in bad grammar - that Hitler wrote the manuscript, I could. Or Jesus or Aliens or me or you. Absolutely everything.

If you were somewhat open to the fact that you, like all of us, do not possess absolute truth, then you would realize this. That you have come up with a system that can make anyone read anything they want in it. After all, the grammar doesn't even have to be correct, words can be omitted and contemporary spelling does not have to be respected.

Numerology allows us to read into these glyphs whatever we desire, and you chose Dee. If you had chosen Voynich himself, you would have been equally successful. Or any author in the entire world.

Just like you could read the snake tale in some other VM pages as well. You would merely have to distort grammar differently and drop some other words.

I know it's hard. You are not the only one. This manuscript has a way of convincing us that our solution must be the right one. But so many others believe the same. That is why, in my opinion, the very best researchers mercilessly and selflessly dump whatever theory they came up with as soon as it is holding them back.

I've told this before, but one of my first ideas aout the manuscript was that it contained recipes for spirits like brandy. However, it just didn't stand against the evidence. I really liked that theory and I saw many clues for it at the time, but the historical record showed that it was impossible. So I dumped it, and am I glad I did! 

When someone presents an idea on a forum, it's not about who's wrong or right. It's about what makes sense and what doesn't. Numerology just doesn't...

(18-11-2016, 05:03 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Two crosses? One of those crosses is on a crown. That's how crowns were designed. If you want to represent a specific person, like the emperor or empress, you have to draw the crown a certain way. It may not have anything whatsoever to do with Christianity as far as the person who drew it was concerned.

Stellar, I don't think I'm going to bother with your posts any more.

Here is why:

Assumption #1: You say Dee did it, even though he was born a century after the probable creation of the manuscript and his hand does not match well to the VMS hand.
Assumption #2: It is numerology (you still haven't shown any proof, only loose "translations" that could be done in any language).
Assumption #3: Even if it is numerology, you have arbitrarily assigned values to the VMS characters. No proof that they are the correct assignations.
Assumption #4: It is Welsh. No proof of this either. In fact, Thomas got more "hits" when using a different language.
Assumption #5: The text matches the images. No one has any proof of this. Your interpretations of the text are based on your assumptions about the images which, in themselves, are open to question. There's no proof or even strong evidence that the big plant with the serpentine creature in the root is the story of Eden. It might be a worm rather than a snake.
Assumption #5: The manuscript has a Christian side. Very flimsy evidence. Crosses were used in non-Christian imagery as well, and also by non-Christians living in Christian societies where the cross was a prevalent icon. The pool creature doesn't look like a whale and the nymph doesn't look like Jonah. It might be a biblical story but there are good arguments from other researchers that it might something else which I suggested you read, but apparently you didn't.

And there are more, but there are already too many assumptions to take any of this seriously, since all you do is defend your assumptions by adding more, rather than re-evaluating them.

Say what you like, but I highly disagree with #3
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JKP, 
Thomas Coon malformed the word RAM in German to make a fit and Virgo does not fit.  So he still has to prove to me he can create a Zodiac using European languages.  As for Chinese lol if the VMS is in Chinese than you people here really have to prove that one.  Using Chinese was a cheap shot.


Coon writes>"Thanks for the questions, Stellar. As for Chinese, I agree with Witchmountain: the Romans themselves had contact with the Chinese, so Chinese being written in a Latin character set isn't problematic. As for a source for "Witern" - before the 1700s-1800s, German didn't have a standard spelling - and in the 1400s, it was a total free-for-all. The word "Widdern" could've been written "Wittern" "Widderen" "Witern" "Witteren" "witeren" etc. Therefore it is not in a modern dictionary."


And Thomas did this to Virgo in German:

Jungefrou in not a German word:
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All these astronomy words relate to the images and so therefore logic states a code.
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On a lighter note here is the spiritual side of the VMS.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Well I answered the questions to the "Garden of Eden Post" and now I'm onto this piece of parchment.  f1r has always been a thorn in my side.  The monas first theor failed there, so I'm trying this Creation story.  It fits nicely with English and Welsh.


As I reminded our Dearest Witch Mountain John Dee does mix Welsh with English
2) This too puzzled me for syntax:  Yet Dee did intermix Welsh with English, example this poem!

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Welsh words.

This Letter third and last I minde to make,
 At your request for very vertues sake; 
Your written panges, and methods set aside,
 From that I byd, looke that you never slide.
 Cut that in Three, which Nature hath made One,
 Then strengthen hyt, even by it self alone, 
Wherewith then Cutte the poudred Sonne in twayne,
 By length of tyme, and heale the woonde againe.
The self same Sunne twys yet more, ye must wounde,
 Still with new Knives, of the same kinde, and grounde; 
Our Monas trewe thus use by natures Law, 
Both binde and lewse, only with rype and rawe, 
And ay thanke God who only is our Guyde, 
All is ynugh, no more then at this Tyde.

JKP, 

Thomas Coon malformed the word RAM in German to make a fit and Virgo does not fit.  So he still has to prove to me he can create a Zodiac using European languages.  As for Chinese lol if the VMS is in Chinese than you people here really have to prove that one.  Using Chinese was a cheap shot.


No, Thomas's use of Chinese was not a cheap shot. It's insulting for you to say so. It was a valid demonstration that your "numerology" method can be applied equally well, sometimes even better, to other languages, in which case you have proved nothing about it being specifically Welsh (or numerology). If you can't see that his example is valid, I don't know what to say because you are obviously missing the underlying logic of your own method.

That's not hair in the drawing (and I don't think it's a penis either, I think it's a line and it looks like it might be extending up from the fish rather than down from the figure). The part that you interpret as hair is a rough spot in the parchment that picked up more pigment. Since I have painted on vellum (and most other materials), I know what it looks like when the paint pools against rough edges.