The Voynich Ninja

(21-09-2016, 05:37 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(21-09-2016, 04:25 PM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(21-09-2016, 12:50 PM)farmerjohn Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.stellar, that's absolutely speculative, but I doubt that we will find names for constellations, stars, zodiacs in VMS (except for obvious ones, such as moon or sun). I also think that author's principle could be "the picture of the object is its name", that's why there is no text near zodiac pictures. I even can imagine situation when there is no name of the plant on a page with that plant, and labels in the manuscript are not names, but rather properties of objects drawn.

I don't follow you correctly enough.  Through out the 12 diagrams of the Zodiac with the Nymphs is that what you are referring to?  There is a system to my method.  Check out this image of the Pleiade.

Stellar, I doubt if that's a "4" glyph in 8oar9. There's no definite descender and it's positioned differently from every other "4" in the manuscript, which means the number has to be changed.


Also, how do you justify the interpretation of Pleiades? I know it's been suggested by others, but there's no proof yet and there are other constellations that are represented by seven stars, and our solar system (moon, sun, earth, and four planets) was represented with seven in those days. Also, you didn't interpret the same word-token to be Taurus as others which means you need to explain your choice.

JKP,

I think your argument is weak here, because in Aldebaran and Tauros the letter, "a's" are apparent.  Stars do not represent planets.  There is a tiny descender and cross over too.  I'm going to pull the edited version with sister added.  Being that Aldebaran and Tauros fit the cipher I believe the intended 7 stars is Pleiade.

(28-10-2016, 10:25 PM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm not forcing anything yet I did have to correct Aquarius and Leo.  The number system verifies this and yes as you know with the Voynich everything is trial by error until you get it right.  I believe you were referring to Aquarius which is now the Water Carrier as is should be; Pisces is the Fish as Cameg.  Leo is now llewon which is plural for lion.


... [pics deleted to conserve space] ...

You say that "... as you know with the Voynich everything is trial by error until you get it right."

I don't agree with this statement. Everything is not trial by error with the Voynich. Much of the good research I've seen has been carefully thought out, carefully investigated, vetted, and double- and triple-checked.


Adding up the numbers wrong or getting the word wrong in the language is not the same as trial-and-error. It is being sloppy and impulsive. You are posting on a board that includes quite a few professionals and reputable amateurs who have spent years honing their skills and who give great care and attention to their efforts. They are not going to accept something that is changed every few hours because it was posted before it had been double-checked.

We all make mistakes, but posting giant pictures of hasty work and then repeating those giant pictures several times to show the corrections is not fair to the people who take the time to read your posts and will not earn you respect for your ideas.


I know you think all my posts are "negative" but they are not. I am reading your posts and taking the time to make suggestions and to share my impressions of your ideas and one of the things I would strongly suggest is that you check and correct your work before you post.


I'm also still of the opinion that you are putting the cart before the horse and I mean this in a helpful way each time I say it. You are forcing a theory on the data instead of letting the data lead you to the solution. This is equivalent to kicking a soccer ball into the street because you saw two lines (the crosswalk) that you assumed were the goalposts. If, instead, you spend some time studying the field, you might discover a better direction to kick the ball.

Have you tried working out the zodiac in a different language like Latin, Russian, Armenian, or Greek? If you haven't, if you are determined to force Welsh on the data, then it's not science, it's stubbornness. Try it with five or six other languages and then you might get a better sense of whether you are on the right track.

(29-10-2016, 12:35 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(28-10-2016, 10:25 PM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm not forcing anything yet I did have to correct Aquarius and Leo.  The number system verifies this and yes as you know with the Voynich everything is trial by error until you get it right.  I believe you were referring to Aquarius which is now the Water Carrier as is should be; Pisces is the Fish as Cameg.  Leo is now llewon which is plural for lion.


... [pics deleted to conserve space] ...

You say that "... as you know with the Voynich everything is trial by error until you get it right."

I don't agree with this statement. Everything is not trial by error with the Voynich. Much of the good research I've seen has been carefully thought out, carefully investigated, vetted, and double- and triple-checked.


Adding up the numbers wrong or getting the word wrong in the language is not the same as trial-and-error. It is being sloppy and impulsive. You are posting on a board that includes quite a few professionals and reputable amateurs who have spent years honing their skills and who give great care and attention to their efforts. They are not going to accept something that is changed every few hours because it was posted before it had been double-checked.

We all make mistakes, but posting giant pictures of hasty work and then repeating those giant pictures several times to show the corrections is not fair to the people who take the time to read your posts and will not earn you respect for your ideas.


I know you think all my posts are "negative" but they are not. I am reading your posts and taking the time to make suggestions and to share my impressions of your ideas and one of the things I would strongly suggest is that you check and correct your work before you post.


I'm also still of the opinion that you are putting the cart before the horse and I mean this in a helpful way each time I say it. You are forcing a theory on the data instead of letting the data lead you to the solution. This is equivalent to kicking a soccer ball into the street because you saw two lines (the crosswalk) that you assumed were the goalposts. If, instead, you spend some time studying the field, you might discover a better direction to kick the ball.

Have you tried working out the zodiac in a different language like Latin, Russian, Armenian, or Greek? If you haven't, if you are determined to force Welsh on the data, then it's not science, it's stubbornness. Try it with five or six other languages and then you might get a better sense of whether you are on the right track.

JKP,

I don't know what to say, but I will write in defense.  I have studied the Voynich Glyph's since 2009 and what I realize is you cannot apply a language to it in a fundamental way. Why JKP, don't you apply Latin to the labels like for garlic and Pleiade and you probably have, but you see the deli-ma. What I believe is there are possibly texts in Welsh maybe from John Dee that were written prior that maybe incorporated into it or possibly someone else that follows this number cipher which I found.  That is speculation, but the bulk of evidence from the labels and themes of imagery which I found in welsh and astronomical names begs otherwise.

Also if languages have not found a fit to the Voynich Manuscript except in my number system which associates it to Welsh; after all these years with computers hitting it and just about everything has been thrown at it why am I wrong?

You are right I'm a pure amateur not affected by academia!  Yes people have pointed out my mistakes and I'm thankful.  It's a pure cipher for MS-408 and no other cipher has garnished meaning except mine.  My method is not mainstream, but it does point heavily to John Dee.

(29-10-2016, 03:02 AM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.JKP,

I don't know what to say, but I will write in defense.  I have studied the Voynich Glyph's since 2009 and what I realize is you cannot apply a language to it in a fundamental way. Why JKP, don't you apply Latin to the labels like for garlic and Pleiade and you probably have, but you see the deli-ma. What I believe is there are possibly texts in Welsh maybe from John Dee that were written prior that maybe incorporated into it or possibly someone else that follows this number cipher which I found.  That is speculation, but the bulk of evidence from the labels and themes of imagery which I found in welsh and astronomical names begs otherwise.

Also if languages have not found a fit to the Voynich Manuscript except in my number system which associates it to Welsh; after all these years with computers hitting it and just about everything has been thrown at it why am I wrong?

You are right I'm a pure amateur not affected by academia!  Yes people have pointed out my mistakes and I'm thankful.  It's a pure cipher for MS-408 and no other cipher has garnished meaning except mine.  My method is not mainstream, but it does point heavily to John Dee.

I'm not saying to apply a language to the text in a fundamental way.

Numerology is not limited to Welsh. It's found in almost every European culture. So apply the numerology to 6 or 7 other languages and see if the same things happen, see if words that seem to match pop out. I think you might learn something about whether your assumption about Welsh (and it's a huge assumption) is right or wrong.

Your method does not point to John Dee. Your assumption about John Dee is influencing your method. That's why you need to try the same method with several other languages to see if it's real or if it's an artifact.

Thank you both for keeping the discussion civil

I agree with Tom that the text does not appear to be "linguistic" in the sense that "you cannot apply a language to it in a fundamental way." There seem to be too many "okchor-chor-chol-okchy" things for a natural language.

JKP brings up a good point about other languages - if we can make this picture fit German, Latin, or another language, then this might be an issue that Tom will need to address: why can not only Welsh be found using his numerology rules, but anything we look for? I tried German and could find 75% of the astrological signs without having to use related words:






(Yet to find: Skorpio, Stier, Fische, Wassermann)

(29-10-2016, 07:12 PM)ThomasCoon Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thank you both for keeping the discussion civil, if indeed a little heated!

I agree with Tom that the text does not appear to be "linguistic" in the sense that "you cannot apply a language to it in a fundamental way." There seem to be too many "okchor-chor-chol-okchy" things for a natural language.

JKP brings up a good point about other languages - if we can make this picture fit German, Latin, or another language, then this might be an issue that Tom will need to address: why can not only Welsh be found using his numerology rules, but anything we look for? I tried German and could find 75% of the astrological signs without having to use related words:






(Yet to find: Skorpio, Stier, Fische, Wassermann)

Thank you Thomas,

I commend your efforts, however what you have found has to be in order counter clockwise and follow astrological signs to the cipher.  Not only have I found words in welsh which relate to astrology signs they are in order counter clockwise and follow my cipher.  You may have found equivalences in German yet they are not in order.

This makes finding the signs or any words in another language so complex as you will find out.

Also my representation follows the traditional astrological Zodiac.

stellar Wrote:Not only have I found words in welsh which relate to astrology signs they are in order counter clockwise and follow my cipher.  You may have found equivalences in German yet they are not in order.

This makes finding the signs or any words in another language so complex as you will find out.

Alright, I will give it a try.

Here is my attempt at 6 of them, in the order specified:

Thomas,

What language is Skorpius?  Please provide a dictionary link Thomas.  I am allowing one word from a different language in the Zodiac since I did use the English word for scorpion.

BOGENSCHUETZEN does not appear in this German dictionary unless you can provide another online dictionary which states otherwise I like to see it.

Bogenschützen is the word for archer in German and it equals a 6.  As you can see this is not a forced task and it has to be precise.  

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Thanks Thomas, and I would like to see anyone else defy my assertion that this will only work in Welsh.

Just to note that its is quite careless to rely on modern dictionaries in decrypting a 15th сentury document. Many things were expressed in different words back then, let alone changes in spelling.

(30-10-2016, 11:51 PM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thomas,

What language is Skorpius?  Please provide a dictionary link Thomas.  I am allowing one word from a different language in the Zodiac since I did use the English word for scorpion.

BOGENSCHUETZEN does not appear in this German dictionary unless you can provide another online dictionary which states otherwise I like to see it.

Bogenschützen is the word for archer in German and it equals a 6.  As you can see this is not a forced task and it has to be precise.  

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Thanks Thomas, and I would like to see anyone else defy my assertion that this will only work in Welsh.

Stellar, it doesn't have to be in a dictionary. In fact, many dictionary words were not used in the 15th century and many non-dictionary words were. For example, in a German dictionary, you will see the word "ein" but in 15th-century Germany, in two specific localities, it was spelled "ain". Also, in southeast Germany, in particular, the "p" was often substituted for a "b".

What matters is not that it be found in an online dictionary, but that it was used in 15th-century manuscripts and I have seen "Skorpius" in old German manuscripts. It's usually spelled with a "c" but occasionally a "k", so it's a valid word in the context of the VMS. I have also seen schützer spelled three different ways. I have NEVER seen Bogenschützen as a label in any medieval astrological manuscript—they either use the Latin word or the short word for "shooter", without "bogen" in front. I've seen Pisces spelled six different ways. Sometimes Latin and German words for zodiacs are on the same page with no rhyme or reason as to why they chose one over the other.