- Options
- Login
- Desktop Style
Options
My Solution – Abbreviated Middle High German
- My Solution – Abbreviated Middle High German
-
My Solution – Abbreviated Middle High German
Thorsten > 4 hours ago
I think I've figured it out!
Hello everyone,
I am aware that announcements of an alleged "solution" to the Voynich manuscript are viewed with justified skepticism. The research history of this manuscript is marked by numerous attempts at interpretation, which on closer inspection have not proven to be viable. This is precisely why I consider a critical classification of one's own approach to be essential.
The method presented here is neither a spontaneous idea nor a speculative quick shot. Likewise, the approach is not based on AI-generated interpretations or freely constructed assignments of meaning. Rather, the basis of my work is a systematic examination of the manuscript over several years.
The focus was in particular on the investigation of recurring character sequences, the analysis of possible linguistic patterns, the reconstruction of historical writing and abbreviation practices, and the examination of plausibility in the cultural and linguistic context of the 15th century. All results were continuously validated against the text itself and checked for consistency, repeatability and contextual reference.
In the meantime, I have reached a point where I consider the viability of the procedure to be sufficiently resilient to put the results so far up for public discussion.
I would therefore like to expressly invite you to critically examine the method, formulate counter-arguments, propose alternative interpretations or apply the method independently.
If the approach proves to be flawed, a critical analysis will show. However, if it is upheld, it could result in a new approach to understanding the Voynich manuscript.
Thank you very much for your attention and willingness to deal with the results.
Thorsten
_____
Why I believe the approach worrks
- The application of my method is reproducible.
- The procedure corresponds to the possibilities and methods of his era.
- After using the method, the text remains fluently legible without additional deciphering aids.
- Recurring words make comprehensible sense when used again in the respective context.
- The text that has already been translated gives a consistent picture in its entirety.
- The content fits plausibly into the historical and cultural environment of the 15th century.
- At the same time, the content provides a comprehensible explanation for why the text was written in a veiled form in the first place.
Reply
Based on my translations to date, the following working hypotheses and conclusions currently emerge:
- In my estimation, the manuscript is written in a form of Middle High German.
- Contrary to previous assumptions, it is probably neither a plant book nor an astronomy work. Rather, the illustrations seem to have a deliberately misleading character. Already in the first paragraph on folio You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. there is, according to my interpretation, a reference to this intention to conceal.
- The text does not form fluid sentences in the modern understanding. Instead, keyword-like word sequences are created, which are more reminiscent of notes, mnemonics or thematically grouped thoughts. This is particularly evident on folio f1v: to the right and left of the plant representation, independent blocks of meaning are created. I consider the recurring formation of such interrelated fields of meaning to be a strong indication of the viability of the method.
- The pages translated so far indicate that the manuscript may have been intended as a kind of collection of advice or knowledge for the courtly environment. The focus seems to be on questions of cohabitation, sexuality, partnership and dynastic marriage – especially under the conditions of politically motivated unions.
- For example, I interpret the diagram on folio You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as a representation of different forms of marital cohabitation. According to my current reading, four possible models are described there:
- a marriage with accepted extramarital relations
- the idealized or socially expected form of marriage
- a relationship with an exclusively sexual partner within the household
- a form of cohabitation marked by jealousy
- a marriage with accepted extramarital relations
Hypothesis
A final test for the following working hypothesis is still pending:
- The Zodiac section seems to me less like a meaningful word assignment and more like a kind of word or reference collection. According to my current impression, this section served the author as a control or reference work - for example, to record abbreviations, terms or meanings already used and to avoid unintentional duplication. A memory aid within a system that is presumably strongly influenced by individual rules of memory.
Steps for decryption
The following steps are required for decryption:
- A character substitution according to the mapping table
- If necessary, use of the syllable table to determine the beginning and end syllables
- If applicable, identification of the part of speech based on the suffix
- Completion of the letter sequences using a Middle High German dictionary
- If necessary, assign a single letter that can be identified as an independent word to the corresponding word
Sample translation You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. – First section
Mittelhochdeutsch
perment mouz vür ûnbedäht. eʒ unhëlsam wît wiʒens. Allzemal von bîzeichen wârheit.
verheiʒen schërz iʒ. sîn behëren menschensin. weiʒ êren alleʒ. alleʒ tuoen vnde
undernëmen wandelbaerlichs iʒ. umbehin wint alich ez sîn allergelûngenst dezem vërs
trügesam einhëllens. Iedoch liuterunge verlieselichs. alde ez diernin überein iʒ üeben
værens. mittelmaeʒic alein gereitʒ kein... ... underdëʒer_wîs
Hochdeutsch
Das Pergamente muss auf Unwissenden, die das Offensichtliche ausgiebig betrachten und auf der Suche nach dem Inhalt sind, wie ein Scherz wirken, der sich über den menschlichen Verstand erhebt. Was es ehrt: Es wurde alles getan und entfernt, was tadelswerte ist. Alles um es herum wirkt wie etwas Nichtiges. Alles in Allem ist es bestens gelungen, so etwas gegenüber täuschend Übereinstimmend zu wirken. Dennoch sind die Ausführungen verlustreich. Ansonsten stimmt das Mädchen zu: es wiederholt ausüben gefährdet uns. Diese Mittelmäßigkeit allein reizt keinen ...
... AUF DIESE ART UND WEISE
English (Automatically translated)
To the uninitiated—those who scrutinize the obvious at length while searching for the true substance—the parchment must appear as a jest that transcends the limits of human intellect. To its credit: everything objectionable has been scrupulously purged or removed. Everything surrounding it seems utterly trivial by comparison. All in all, it has succeeded admirably in presenting such a deceptively convincing facade. Nevertheless, the execution itself is flawed. In this regard, the girl concurs: attempting this again would put us in peril. This mediocrity alone holds no allure for anyone...
... IN THIS MANNER
I have published some selected pages on my Google Drive (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) for review. The previous deciphering of 10 pages resulted in a preliminary dictionary with currently about 800 entries.
In addition, I also provide the substitution table I use, including its derivation, as well as an overview of the identified prefixes and suffixes and an example sequence for the translation to make the procedure comprehensible and reproducible.
I would like to point out that all materials are still subject to an ongoing revision and validation process. In particular, the assignment of individual Middle High German words remains the subject of continuous examination due to the reduced spelling and the associated scope for interpretation.
I am aware that I will not have hit all the words correctly. Therefore, the procedure itself should be at the forefront of a review.
I also ask all those who read the German variant of the word transfer to keep in mind that not only Voynich symbols were transferred, but also a transfer from Middle High German to New High German had to take place. This is deliberately a word-for-word transfer that is as direct as possible using a dictionary. As a result, the text naturally reads a bit bumpy in places.
I am not an expert in this field. Nevertheless, I think that the basic context can already be seen.
To all those who are now looking for a clear, fixed algorithm, I would like to say: In my opinion, you are already starting from a modern way of thinking. This idea is closely linked to the computer age or to actual cryptographic encryption.
The author was probably not interested in creating a mathematically clean system. The aim was to disguise content – and to be able to read it again later. Whether a rule was applied consistently or a mnemonic bridge was sufficient at another point, whether work was done from memory or improvised spontaneously – all these are possibilities of this time.
The Voynich manuscript is probably not a text that can be translated with elegant source code at the touch of a button.
I therefore think that a serious decryption of the VM will end up with something that seems almost old-fashioned in our time: manual work. - The application of my method is reproducible.
-
RE: My Solution – Abbreviated Middle High German
oshfdk > 2 hours ago
Hi,
Could you translate the following collection of labels and explain their meaning in the context of surrounding images?
-
RE: My Solution – Abbreviated Middle High German
JoJo_Jost > 2 hours ago
On You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. there are paragraphs at the top and bottom—did you even look at the page? There are no separate paragraphs to the left and right of the plants; they’re essentially written over the plant. That doesn’t match your description.
How could anyone come up with such an absurd idea for Folio 57v—do you even know the page? Are the 4 sets of 17 letters some kind of sacred allusion to marriage?
Sorry, but so far this is unfortunately extremely unconvincing and has all the typical signs of AI sloppiness.
But convince me! I’m always on board with MHG...
-
RE: My Solution – Abbreviated Middle High German
JoJo_Jost > 1 hour ago
Okay, I took the time to look through your PDFs. No AI after all. But:
In your substitution, many glyphs are assigned dual meanings: (u|v), (i|ü), (d|t), (in|m), (u|s). These are pairs that (mostly) match each other in Middle High German, but not randomly. They would have to present a consistent picture. That’s a degree of freedom.
But that’s not all there is to freedom. The “freely” inserted prefixes and suffixes come into play as well. But honestly, I didn’t understand that part either. I’d need more information here.
And then you yourself describe this search in the dictionary network (“sch*e*z” -> 31 hits) and there you picked out the matching one.
With this degree of freedom, you’ll always find a string in such a lexicon that can be pieced together into something. Usually not real sentences, but phrases that can be interpreted with a great deal of freedom. That’s not a discovery. That’s adapting to a wish. It’s classic eisegesis.
And you’re not the first to do this. Others have already used dictionaries and their many possibilities to find halfway reasonable (mostly really only halfway) sentences from a VMS substitution—strangely enough, in languages completely different from Middle High German—and that supposedly worked too.
No offense, you’ve put in a lot of work, it seems to me. But if you really want to convince anyone here, you need to be more consistent—it probably won’t be accepted here the way it is.
And what you're passing off as Middle High German/Bavarian doesn't sound like Middle High German—it's more like gibberish. And your interpretation of the sentences, the way you've translated them into German/English, is actually quite loose - too lose... sry... -
RE: My Solution – Abbreviated Middle High German
Thorsten > 1 hour ago
(2 hours ago)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi,
Could you translate the following collection of labels and explain their meaning in the context of surrounding images?
Unfortunately, it is not so easy to identify individual words without context. The process involves the reduction of letters. Thus, we who did not write the text and cannot fall back on our memory must guess.
And guessing without hints is not very promising. So far, I have only been able to translate the words as such because they provided clues as a sentence in their entirety.
It is quite possible that I will find these words elsewhere and will be able to determine them more precisely later.
To be honest, I haven't been to these pages yet. As you can imagine, the translation is very time-consuming and I try to focus on individual pages.
Nevertheless, I recognized a few words on a screenshot that I already know. At first glance, it almost looks to me as if they are not individual words at all, but as if they would result in a sequence.
i.h.l.m (89)
wihtel-mennelin (Sub.)
little imp
i.h.l (89)
ein-hellunge (Sub.)
permission
d.e.in
diernin
dirn
i.h.s
ihtes
something
i.h.l.
in-holn
obtain
d.e.t
det (toun)
do
Tip from me: Focus less on the pictures. They were intentionally included in the manuscript to mislead. As it is already written on page one. -
RE: My Solution – Abbreviated Middle High German
Rafal > 58 minutes ago
I had a look at your solution.
The good thing about it is that it is rather consistent, possible to evaluate and you don't hide anything but show every word with its transliteration and interpretation. We have seen here a lot of stuff which gave some translation but made people scratch their heads how the researcher actually got it.
The bad thing is that your interpretatiom is very loose and permissive. Let me quote 1r folio solution from your link here:
So, if I understand things correctly, you make jumps from transcription to the final words like:
- ges becomes Rettung
- wls becomes unbeachtet
- mit becomes Fehltritt
- met becomes Mittelweg
- bms becomes Zuchtrute
And so on.
How does it work? Some of these words aren't even minimally similar. Is it some jargon vs modern German, or what?
-
RE: My Solution – Abbreviated Middle High German
Thorsten > 54 minutes ago
[quote="JoJo_Jost" pid='84830' dateline='1779824315']
Okay, I took the time to look through your PDFs. No AI after all. But:
[/Zitat]
There may have been translation problems here, as I write in German and have it translated automatically.
In folio 1v, there is text on a line to the left and right of the plant. Translated, a respective unit makes sense in itself.
Folio 57v has a double meaning: On the one hand, it is about the aforementioned four types of cohabitation between men and women. On the other hand, the second ring "could" have been used from the outside for an assignment substitution - as shown in my picture.
Yes, "sch*e*z" has 31 hits. But which is more likely? That it means "schërz" or "schrûben-holz"? (This is just an arbitrarily chosen example)
This also makes it clear why it is difficult to program an algorithm. But why should the author have thought in an algorithm?
Prefix und Suffix
For example, if I take the word "v.i.s.v". Then v- is ver- as a prefix and the prefix -v is the suffix -unge. Thus, ver.i.s.unge. In this case, I have seven results in the dictionary. We now need context to determine the right word. The author did not need this in order to be able to read the text fluently. He knew what he had written down. He only needs a thought aid. I chose "Dungeons" for this, because it only takes one more letter in spoken form. Over time, you develop a feeling for it.
This is another example of the fact that you can't pick a single word.
"With this degree of freedom, you will always find a string of characters in such an encyclopedia..." I would be happy if I could confirm that. For one sentence, I would agree with that. But not for 10 pages and not even if translated words are repeated several times and continue to make sense. I don't want to claim that I chose the right word for every word. Nevertheless, I believe that the procedure is the right one.
Otherwise, of course, I accept your opinion.
__
Möglicherweise kann es hier zu Übersetzungsproblemen gekommen sein, da ich auf deutsch schreibe und automatisch übersetzen lasse.
Bei Folio 1v steht in einer Zeile links und rechts der Pflanze Text. Übersetzt ergibt eine jeweilige Einheit in sich Sinn.
Folio 57v hat eine Doppelbedeutung: Zum einen geht es um die besagten vier Arten des Zusammenlebens von Mann und Frau. Zum anderen „könnte“ der zweite Ring von außen für eine Zuordnungssubstitution verwendet worden sein - wie in meinem Bild gezeigt.
Ja, „sch*e*z“ hat 31 Treffer. Aber was ist wahrscheinlicher? Das es „schërz“ bedeutet oder „schrûben-holz“? (Das ist nur ein wahllos gewähltes Beispiel)
Dadurch wird auch klar, warum es schwer wird einen Algorithmus zu programmieren. Aber warum sollte der Verfasser in einem Algorithmus gedacht haben?
Prefix und Suffix
Wenn ich beispielweise das Wort „v.i.s.v“ nehme. Dann ist v- als Vorsilbe ver- und das hintere -v die Nachsilbe -unge. Somit ergibt sich ver.i.s.unge. In diesem Fall habe ich sieben Ergebnisse im Wörterbuch. Wir brauchen nun Kontext um das richtige Wort zu ermitteln. Der Verfasser brauchte das nicht, um den Text fließend lesen zu können. Er wusste was er aufgeschrieben hat. Er braucht nur eine Gedankenstütze. Ich habe hierfür dann „Verliesunge“ gewählt, da es in gesprochener Form nur einen Buchstaben mehr bedarf. Mit der Zeit entwickelt man dann auch ein Gefühl dafür.
Das ist wieder ein Beispiel dafür, dass man sich nicht ein einzelnes Wort herauspicken kann.
„Mit diesem Freiheitsgrad findet man in einem solchen Lexikon immer eine Zeichenkette...“ Ich wäre froh, wenn ich das bestätigen könnte. Für einen Satz würde ich dem zustimmen. Aber nicht für 10 Seiten und auch nicht, wenn sich übersetze Worte mehrfach wiederholen und weiterhin Sinn ergeben. Ich möchte nicht behaupten, dass ich bei jedem Wort das richtige gewählt habe. Dennoch glaube ich das das Verfahren das richtige ist.
Ansonsten akzeptiere ich natürlich Deine Meinung. -
RE: My Solution – Abbreviated Middle High German
Thorsten > 44 minutes ago
(58 minutes ago)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I had a look at your solution.
How does it work? Some of these words aren't even minimally similar. Is it some jargon vs modern German, or what?
The lack of similarity could be due to the fact that the screenshot shows the High German translation. This was created by the translation using the Middle High German/High German dictionary.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
____
Die mangelnde Ähnlichkeit könnte daran liegen, dass der Screenshot die hochdeutsche Übersetzung zeigt. Diese Entstand durch die Übersetzung mittels des Wörterbuchs Mittelhochdeutsch/Hochdeutsch.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: My Solution – Abbreviated Middle High German
JoJo_Jost > 37 minutes ago
Für mich sind es keine Übersetzungsfehler, da ich sowohl deutsch spreche, MHD verstehe (so einigermaßen) als auch englisch verstehe... (zum Schreiben hole ich mir auch deeple, manchmal eine kI)
As far as I'm concerned, these aren't translation errors, since I speak German, understand MHD (to some extent), and understand English... (When it comes to writing in English, I also use DeepL, and sometimes an AI tool) -
RE: My Solution – Abbreviated Middle High German
Thorsten > 4 minutes ago
First of all, thank you guys so much for contributing, this means a lot to me!
From my perspective, this topic/thread includes several layers of complexity:
a)My English is not that good, therefore I have to rely on tools to translate my thoughts into the English version you are reading in this very thread/topic.
Hopefully not that much of information and also details are lost in that translation already.
b)I am not an expert in translating middle high German into the German language we know today. I assume there are just few real experts around, and still even they might have to rely on tools and/or translate text depending on context. (None of us was living at that time
c) the original was not meant to be encrypted in ways we would do it today using computers/machines, but rather to make it readable for the author only (at any time) but no one else.
d) well, the "encryption" itself, which I think I am able to explain in its structure and its idea. This does not (yet) mean I can simply decrypt all pages at once (there is not the one algorithm to that, as I said before).
Having this said, I am sure it is impossible to tell that my approach is right or wrong within a few minutes, which is why I am approaching you guys as experts to spend some more minutes on my thoughts in this very special area where we all have spend so much endless hours already.