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| Resolving whether 86v is a map or not |
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Posted by: Mark Knowles - 13-04-2019, 01:59 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (18)
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It should be noted, as some will know, that I have devoted a significant of time to this subject.
However rather than getting the opinions of layman on the subject I have started the process of getting as much relevant expert opinion of the subject. I have been in touch with experts on medieval maps and I plan to get in touch with as many relevant experts as I can find, as I am keen to get this question as close to being settled as I can.
Now there are other suggestions as to what this page represents. As far as I am aware these are the 4 other suggestions:
1) Some kind of cosmological drawing i.e. of the planets
2) Some kind of drawing relating to the 4 elements
3) Some kind of architectural plans
4) A combination of different possibilities i.e. map and/or 1, 2, 3 above
It seems to me to explore the full analysis of these possibilities one should really consult experts on medieval cosmological drawings, elemental drawings, and architectural plans. They can give us some idea if the page likely represents something in their field of expertise.
This is not a peripheral question, but I think a vital question as if it is indeed a map as I others believe, it has the potential to impart valuable geographic insights into the origin of the Voynich, especially if it is a regional itinerary map as I have argued.
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| Experimental replica of VMS properties with a given corpus |
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Posted by: bi3mw - 11-04-2019, 06:14 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (70)
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For some time I have been dealing with a fundamental question. Have you ever tried to use a ( medieval ) corpus to generate text that has similar characteristics to the VMS using cryptographic methods? The horse is saddled here, so to speak, from the other side. I mean no random text, but text that can be decrypted again (meaningful). For example, is it possible to replicate the steep curve of word lengths ? Are immediate,multiple word repetitions possible ?
It is therefore a matter of experimentally replicating the known properties of the VMS with a given corpus ( modeling ). Does that make sense in your opinion or is that too experimental ?
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| Choice of glyphs |
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Posted by: Koen G - 07-04-2019, 01:33 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (56)
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We know almost for sure that the Voynichese glyph set was purposefully assembled. By which I mean, it did not organically evolve over centuries. The fact that we have this particular collection of glyphs is likely the result of someone's (or a group's) conscious choice.
We don't know if the glyph set was first constructed for the VM, and if more documents using it have existed. We also don't know if there are earlier or other versions elsewhere. But this matters little, we have what we have.
So I've been thinking for a while... if we can assume that these glyphs were chosen, then what was the rationale behind their inclusion? It's quite a peculiar set.
- a - letter a --> vowel
- o - letter o or zero --> vowel or number
- l - four --> number
- q - four or five or q? --> number or consonant
- d - d or s or eight --> number or consonant
- y - abbreviation or nine --> abbreviation or number
- s - abbreviation
- m - abbreviation
- g - abbreviation
- n - abbreviation
- ch - ligature
- sh - ligature
- r - consonant (or abbreviation?)
- e - c? or minim? what is this?
- i - letter i? or minim?
- t - abbreviation (?)
- k - abbreviation (?)
- z - abbreviation (?)
This list is made off the top of my head from what I remember, it's incomplete and I hope it can be fleshed out further and corrected. Still, it's a strange picture already.
We have:- 5 glyphs that can be numbers
- About 10 glyphs in the ligature/abbreviation category
- Very few glyphs that are exclusively vowel or consonant. EVA-a is an exception. I'm not sure what to do with EVA-i and -e. EVA-r might be a pure consonant?
What does this tell us? It appears that the glyph set is mostly composed of numbers and scribal conventions. Those few that are found in the alphabet often double as a number or abbreviation. So the glyph set simultaneously:
- Avoids unambiguous characters from the alphabet.
- Uses characters familiar to the Latin scribe.
The final point might also be of interest. The selection of known symbols likely meant that the writing system could be learned easily.
But why construct a glyph set that relies so heavily on numbers and abbreviation symbols?
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| [split] Diplomatic ciphers |
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Posted by: Mark Knowles - 06-04-2019, 07:54 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (92)
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I must confess I haven't read all the replies and I, as some others know, believe it to be a cipher. Now in a sense a cipher is a deception by its nature, so I don't know if that is what you meant by a "deception".
You say: "The only third option is that the language-like properties we see in script, statistics and layout are an UNintended side effect of whatever else is going on. But that feels so unlikely."
In think the language like properties we see in the script and statistics are not inconsistent with what I term an "atypical" diplomatic cipher such as were used in Northern Italy in the early 15th century. So if I understand you correctly what you suggest to me seems not so unlikely.
As far as script goes, how familar are you with diplomatic cipher symbols of the time?
As far as statistics go how familiar are you with how diplomatic ciphers work? I use the word "atypical" as this is clearly not a standard diplomatic cipher, but that is where I believe the influences come from. I also think this was a turbulent time in diplomatic cipher development and so techniques had not yet been standardised.
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| Thoughts upon the leaf marginalia indicating provenance... |
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Posted by: davidjackson - 04-04-2019, 05:46 PM - Forum: Marginalia
- Replies (11)
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Simply an off the cuff thought that I haven't thought through, but, surely the presence of the various 15th century Latin characters hidden on leaves is a hint that the manuscript was originally produced by people with extensive or even native knowledge of western European literary tradition?
IE, it's unlikely that a native writer of a script other than Roman would have used Roman characters in these places.
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| [split] Nikolai's theory |
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Posted by: Nikolai - 03-04-2019, 09:09 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (17)
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There is a key to cipher the Voynich manuscript.
The key to the cipher manuscript placed in the manuscript. It is placed throughout the text. Part of the key hints is placed on the sheet 14. With her help was able to translate a few dozen words that are completely relevant to the theme sections.
The Voynich manuscript is not written with letters. It is written in signs. Characters replace the letters of the alphabet one of the ancient language. Moreover, in the text there are 2 levels of encryption. I figured out the key by which the first section could read the following words: hemp, wearing hemp; food, food (sheet 20 at the numbering on the Internet); to clean (gut), knowledge, perhaps the desire, to drink, sweet beverage (nectar), maturation (maturity), to consider, to believe (sheet 107); to drink; six; flourishing; increasing; intense; peas; sweet drink, nectar, etc. Is just the short words, 2-3 sign. To translate words with more than 2-3 characters requires knowledge of this ancient language. The fact that some symbols represent two letters. In the end, the word consisting of three characters can fit up to six letters. Three letters are superfluous. In the end, you need six characters to define the semantic word of three letters. Of course, without knowledge of this language make it very difficult even with a dictionary.
And most important. In the manuscript there is information about "the Holy Grail".
If you are interested in this topic, I am ready to provide detailed information.
Nikolai.
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