| Welcome, Guest |
You have to register before you can post on our site.
|
| Online Users |
There are currently 257 online users.
» 1 Member(s) | 254 Guest(s)
Bing, Google, BessAgritianin
|
| Latest Threads |
Red Herrings are sometime...
Forum: Voynich Talk
Last Post: RadioFM
4 hours ago
» Replies: 2
» Views: 60
|
A good match, perhaps fro...
Forum: Marginalia
Last Post: R. Sale
7 hours ago
» Replies: 38
» Views: 1,370
|
More Germanic influences ...
Forum: Astrology & Astronomy
Last Post: magnesium
10 hours ago
» Replies: 19
» Views: 18,143
|
Favorite Plant Tournament...
Forum: Voynich Talk
Last Post: Bluetoes101
Yesterday, 05:25 PM
» Replies: 16
» Views: 740
|
f17r multispectral images
Forum: Marginalia
Last Post: Aga Tentakulus
Yesterday, 05:01 PM
» Replies: 85
» Views: 15,718
|
Need advice for testing o...
Forum: Analysis of the text
Last Post: nablator
Yesterday, 01:06 PM
» Replies: 91
» Views: 4,682
|
SOLUTION/ the Voynich Man...
Forum: Theories & Solutions
Last Post: ReneZ
Yesterday, 10:27 AM
» Replies: 10
» Views: 382
|
Music of the Spheres and ...
Forum: Theories & Solutions
Last Post: Kris1212
17-07-2025, 03:25 PM
» Replies: 4
» Views: 281
|
How LLM models try to und...
Forum: Analysis of the text
Last Post: quimqu
17-07-2025, 08:13 AM
» Replies: 5
» Views: 381
|
Written in a mirror?
Forum: Theories & Solutions
Last Post: oshfdk
16-07-2025, 06:57 PM
» Replies: 2
» Views: 186
|
|
|
| The leftmost column in f66r |
|
Posted by: Anton - 11-09-2016, 01:03 AM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (13)
|
 |
Discussing the occurrences of q in the beginning of labels, Sam You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. me to the label list by J. Stolfi. And I see a very interesting thing in this list. The vord qokal, which is one of the vords in the leftmost column of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (the "mussdel" folio) is also used as a label elsewhere - namely, in f75v.
If we admit that labels stand for words, then this means three things.
1) The vords in the leftmost column of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. stand for words;
2) Those words are of the same part of speech. I.e., they are all nouns or they are all adjectives, or etc.;
3) They are likely to represent a homogenous set. I.e., if adjectives, they may be all colours (red, green...) or all perceptions (hot, moist...). If nouns, they may be all planets or all stones. Etc.
I think this may be a very promising clue. Definitely, subject to contextual analysis.
An additional hint is that their number is fifteen. Are any sets of fifteen objects out there in magical or other traditions?
There is a potential spoiler though - this stuff in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. may be not labels but a natural flow of text, just interrupted by those floods...
***
I have an impression that the first glyph of the first vord in the column is hidden from our view by the binding.
|
|
|
| Words beginning [a] |
|
Posted by: Emma May Smith - 10-09-2016, 05:26 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (11)
|
 |
I recently made the remark in another thread that there is some relationship between [daiin] and [aiin], and words beginning [d] and [a] in general. Now that I've had time to check my notes I realize that I was somewhat wrong, and would like to here present a correction and an explanation. I hope that other will provide comments on my observations, which I present below in condensed form.
Problem
Words beginning [a] are common in the Voynich text. There are nearly 2,000 word tokens beginning [a]. But at the start of lines they are rare. Only around 25 word tokens beginning [a] are found at the start of lines. The most common word type beginning [a] is [aiin], which has 0 occurrences at the start of a line. Most such words are similar.
The statistics for the first characters of words at the beginning of lines are rather divergent as a whole. The characters [y, d, p, s, t, f] occur more often, the rest less often, than in the main text. For [p, f] and maybe partially [t], the cause is the well known phenomenon of Grove Words. For [y, d, s] the cause is unknown.
Although we should not expect the text of the manuscript to be completely flat and the same throughout, we should still seek to explain variations. That's the most likely place we will learn something new. So we should presume there is a reason behind the lack of words beginning [a] at the start of lines, and that the reason is discoverable.
Argument
An hypothesis for explaining both the lack of [a] beginning words and the high occurrence of [y, d, s] beginning words could be that those letters are added to the beginning of [a] words.
It is impossible that [y] is added to the beginning of [a] words, nominally because [ya] strings are rare but also theoretically because they are likely very similar characters.
The character [d] could be added, but words beginning [da] are not hugely overrepresented at the start of lines, though there is some tendency toward this in Quire 20. It could be partially responsible for our observations.
The character [s] is the best fit for this role. Of around 1090 word tokens beginning [s], about 470, or 43% occur at the start of lines. For words tokens beginning [sa] the figures are about 190 of 510 that occur at the start of lines, or 37%. These are obviously more common at the start of lines than we should expect, with an excess of around 120. Their occurrence in the main text suggest that they are also valid words normally.
Conclusion
The lack of words beginning [a] at the start of lines may be caused by an unknown process which adds [s] to their beginning. This would also explain the high number of words beginning [sa] in that position. The same process may cause [s] to be added to words beginning [o], as words beginning [o] are less common at the start of lines and those beginning [so] more common.
If the existence of a process of this kind is accepted we would look to generalize to explain the presence of words beginning [y, d] too. The character [d] is especially interesting as it has already been implicated in the lack of words beginning [a].
|
|
|
|
| Beyond 43N; 5E. Evidence and discussion |
|
Posted by: Diane - 10-09-2016, 08:34 AM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (34)
|
|
The balance of evidence is plainly in favour of the manuscript's having been manufactured somewhere in Europe during the fifteenth century.
At present the date-range 1405-1438 is the most objective for that manufacture, but as regards the manuscript's content and especially its imagery, there has been a noticeable absence of open investigation or enquiry, despite the various indications which have been recognised since the 1920s that the content does not present as of medieval European character and origin.
Accepting the obvious fact that the 'Germanic' theory is the one which has been most consistently and enegetically promoted for the past ten years and more, and that most people interested in this manuscript will be fully familiar with its propositions and items proffered in support, this thread is, specifically, about matter which comes from the rest of the world - beyond the boundaries of "43 degrees North, 5 degrees East".
We have already seen Linda mention the Yemen; Koen and Sam G. discussing Syria and North Africa (including Egypt) and of course I make no secret of believing that whatever the language of the written text, the evidence is overwhelming that the imagery did not originate in the Latin culture of medieval Europe.
With all due politeness, may I ask that those adhering to the 'germanic/central Europe' proposition contribute their ideas to the many other forums and threads in which that theory is constantly re-presented?
|
|
|
|
Rules and purpose of this task forum |
|
Posted by: davidjackson - 10-09-2016, 07:50 AM - Forum: Positions we can agree upon
- No Replies
|
 |
Please read and understand the following before posting in this forum.
Questions should be PM'd to an Editor or asked in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
1. General
The task ultimately aims at developing a more or less comprehensive reference in regard to the Voynich Manuscript and research thereof. This can be briefly called "Voynich Manuscript Body of Knowledge" (VMBOK). This is an ultimate result which may or may not be reached in future. However, in the foreseeable period of time, the task narrows down to collecting and putting down in a coherent manner most basic and indisputable facts about the Voynich Manuscript itself. (This is designated as "VMBOK phase 1").
The difference of VMBOK (be that VMBOK on the whole or just VMBOK phase 1) from similar projects elsewhere is that information is entered into VMBOK not at anyone's personal discretion, but after a thorough community discussion and based on a community decision (expressed via the voting system). It is expected that in this way the correctness and comprehensiveness of records will be maintained.
2. Structure
VMBOK is comprised of blocks. Blocks are just sets of statements grouped together in a coherent and thematic manner. A block contains one or more statements. The purpose of working with blocks instead of individual statements is to save time and reduce overhead.
Blocks are grouped in sections. When creating a new thread, a section selection must be expressed in the prefix. Currently the following sections are in use:
VMBOK -> - Generic
- History
- Physical material
- Palaeography
- Text
- Marginalia
- Imagery
- Misc
The "Generic" section serves as a high-level abstract, then individual sections deal with respective issues. Each section beside the "Generic" section is structured in the following way:
--> Generic
--> Issue 1
--> Issue 2
...
--> Issue N
Here "Issue 1" etc. are themed issues within the specified section, and "Generic" is a subsection for blocks not falling under any specific issue of that section.
3. Permissions
Each forum member with a non-negative reputation may take part in proposals, discussions and polls.
4. Proposals
4.1 - Opening a proposal
A proposal is filed by opening a new thread in the VMBOK task sub-forum. Filing a proposal means that the submitter proposes to include a new block into VMBOK (or to change an existing block). The proposal contains the initial (draft) revision of the block as prepared by the submitter.
The proposed block should be phrased in the most concise manner possible and should be supported by references as may be required. To save discussion overhead, only statements likely to be approved in pack should be included into a single block. However, the multitude of statements in a block should not be extended to such degree which makes it unlikely for the block to be approved as a whole.
4.2 - Factual content
Prior to opening a proposal, the submitter should assess whether all statements of the proposed block represent confirmed facts only. Here is an example of a statement representing a confirmed fact:
- The VMS is an illustrated manuscript written on vellum.
Here is an example of a wrong statement (which should not be proposed):
- The VMS was written by Roger Bacon.
Here is an example of a disputable statement containing a hypothesis (which should not be submitted):
- The VMS contains some material authored by Roger Bacon.
The statements proposed should be statements. In other words, they should be definite. Here's an example of an indefinite statement (which should not be proposed):
- The VMS may contain some material authored by Roger Bacon.
"May contain" is pretty much the same as "may not contain", it does not represent a statement of fact, but (at most) an estimate of likelihood.
The statements should be about facts about the VMS, not about facts about the research of the VMS (because the latter is just outside of the scope of VMBOK phase 1). The following statement is an example of such out-of-scope:
- Researchers X, Y and Z argue that the VMS contains certain material authored by Roger Bacon.
Nor should statements examine explanations about the VMS. The following is an example of such an out-of-scope statement:
- Researcher X's theory that the plant on folio Y represents a daisy is correct
4.3 - Titles of proposals
The title of the proposal should be a summary of the statement, when-ever possible.
If the statement is too broad for a summary, then a description of the block should be given (ie, a statement about handwriting on different pages could be summarised as upon the distinct calligraphy present within the manuscript).
Editors reserve the right to modify titles without prior notice should they feel it necessary.
5. Discussion
Following a proposal having been filed, discussion thereof is conducted in the same thread. The submitter is welcome to edit the text of the proposed block so as to reflect the results of the discussion - by correcting, adding or deleting statements.
Participants to the discussion may argue in favour of the block (or certain statements therein) or against such. They also may propose their own revisions of the statements of interest. This is done in the thread of the statement. Off-topic remarks will be moved by editors, and constant off-topic remarks may lead to a loss of reputation that will prevent the poster from future participation in the forum.
The discussion is moderated by Editors (who are made moderators of the whole sub-forum of the task). If an Editor sees that more than one statement of the block is being substantially disputed, s/he may split the block (and the respective thread) into two (or more, as appropriate) blocks, so that those may be discussed separately.
The discussion is generally not limited in time. When an Editor sees that no substantial comments are being added no more, s/he puts the block on poll. Depending on the nature of the discussion, the poll may be of the "approve/disapprove" style or of the "approve variant 1/approve variant 2/.../approve variant N/decline all variants" style. The poll is open (i.e. it is publicly seen who voted for which option). The period of the poll is three weeks.
Decision to approve is made by the qualified majority (80% of votes). If less than 80% of votes are collected in favour of approval, this means that status quo is preserved and no changes are introduced into VMBOK.
Editors have veto right against any approval.
After the poll the thread is locked and moved into the appropriate suib-forum.
6. Incorporation Into VMBOK
Approved blocks are incorporated into VMBOK. This is technically done by Editors. The VMBOK text is maintained in a dedicated thread (or in a set of threads, as may become appropriate).
7. Re-evaluation
In the course of time it may become necessary to revoke or change any statements approved previously. The procedure is the same as described above in Articles 4-6. To avoid "ping-ponging", a statement may not be proposed for re-evaluation until six months from the date of its approval.
8. Blocks declined
A block declined (i.e. not approved in a poll) does not mean that all statements of the block are declined. The declined block consisting of several statements may be corrected (e.g. excluding the disputable statement) and proposed in modified form.
If a block of one statement is declined, that means that the statement is declined and the latter may not be submitted again (either standalone or as part of a new block) until six months has expired from the date when the respective poll ended.
Repeated submission of a statement previously declined should be made only with sufficient reasons for that (e.g. new facts have been discovered which prove the statement and overthrow opposite statements). Such reasons should be explained when submitting a block containing a statement previously declined.
9. Editorial decision
The decision of an Editor is final in all cases. Modifications to statement blocks, or the title of the block, may be carried out before polling opens without notification to the poster, although any major modification will be discussed beforehand.
Only Editors may accept a statement for voting and post the poll.
The process for accepting volunteers as Editors is the same as in the Peer-Review system.
|
|
|
|
| On plain texts and ciphers (a thought experiment) |
|
Posted by: Koen G - 09-09-2016, 12:07 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (73)
|
 |
I am often a bit confused when people argue about whether the VM text is a cipher or not. It is not at all clear what is meant with a cipher, and where the line is drawn.
I made this thread in the hopes that especially those "old timers" who have been involved with the text might clarify a few things for me.
When someone says "it is not a cipher", I guess they mean that no uniform system was used to purposefully transform an understandable text into something that needs to be "deciphered" by the reader - right?
On the other hand, it seems like not many people believe that this was a "normal" script that was used by a community in their everyday writing (like Latin, Greek, Arabic scripts).
Let's consider this hypothetical scenario. This is not something I (or anyone?) believe, it is just a thought experiment:
A relatively small community lives somewhere in central-southern Europe. Their language or dialect is different than that of those around them. This was not uncommon in the times before standardization and the eradication of "les patois". Their language is entirely unknown to us, and it was likely an isolate like Basque. Somewhere around the 13th century, they adopted the Latin script for writing in their own language, though over the centuries they made numerous alterations to express different sounds. The result was Voynichese. Since they were a small community, they only produced a small amount of manuscripts, and their language and script were wiped from the face of the earth when the renaissance desire for national unity started imposing standard language forms within national borders. Only one manuscript remains today, and nobody knows how to read it.
So my question is: only looking at the origin of the script, is such a scenario possible? Is there anything in Voynichese that argues against this?
And if it is not possible, then is it a cipher?
And it if is neither, then what is it?
|
|
|
|
| Medieval Languages |
|
Posted by: Botis - 07-09-2016, 08:32 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (4)
|
 |
So, a lot of people interested in the Voynich aren't necessarily medievalists, and as a result it sometimes falls that they are not familiar with medieval forms of languages. I am pointing this out because I see a lot of people coming up with ideas and then trying to apply them with modern languages, which probably wouldn't come out right even if one had discovered the correct solution.
While Shakespeare is often erroneously described as writing in "old English" the fact is that genuine Old English would be just about indecipherable to a modern reader (Hwaet we gardena in geardagum...) and the carbon dating of the Voynich puts it into the Middle English period, if we're to talk of English. Probably the most famous poet of the Middle English period was Geoffrey Chaucer, whose writing looked like this:
Compleyne ne koude, ne might myn herte never,
My peynes halve, ne what torment I have,
Though that I sholde in your presence ben ever,
Myn hertes lady, as wisly he me save
That Bountee made, and Beautee list to grave
In your persone, and bad hem bothe in-fere
Ever t'awayte, and ay be wher ye were.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., though I think the best book I've found about learning ME is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
French also looked different historically and used different word endings. Here's an example from Christine de Pisan:
Doulce dame, vueilliez moy pardonner
Se demouré ay un pou longuement;
Car je n'ay peü plus tost retourner,
Dont me desplaist; car trop d'empeschement
M'est survenu, mais croiez fermement
Que vostre suis, ou soie près ou loings,
Le dieu d'amours m'en soit loial tesmoins.
Probably the best resource I've personally found for learning this type of French is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -- later than the Voynich but preserving more of the historical forms in a teachable way. There are also several sources about learning Old French, which is an earlier form than Middle French but which might have some useful things to know.
German had Middle Low German and Middle High German.
From Hans van Ghetelen (Low German):
De hane quam vor den konnynck stan
Vnde sach ene seer drofflyk an.
He hadde by syk twey hanen groet,
De drouych weren vmme dessen dot.
De eyne was gheheten Kreyant,
De beste hane, den men vant
Twysschen Hollant vnde Franckryk.
Here's Oswald von Wolkenstein (High German):
Die mynne füget nyemand
wer da nicht enhat
wann wo er hin gat
man spricht du wicht
we dir was wiltu mir
ge fiirhin drat
hast nicht so richt
dich balde von hynnen
dein mynnen
dir übel ane stat.
Unhappily I don't know much on where to learn these ones but maybe someone else can help.
Italian was even worse than German in having different dialects. Luckily there did come to be some preferred dialects just for the arts, but since we don't know what the Voynich really is it could be all kinds of weird local dialects if it were Italian. But for the same of giving an example, here's a poem by Michelangelo.
Come può esser, ch'io non sia più mio ?
O Dio, o Dio, o Dio!
Chi m'ha tolto a me stesso,
ch'a me fosse più presso
o più di me potessi, che poss'io?
O Dio, o Dio, o Dio!
Come mi passa el core
chi non par che mi tocchi?
Even Latin was done a little differently at that time, than the Classical Latin you tend to get taught if you take classes in it. Renaissance Latin is the name given for the kind of Latin that was being done in the 15th century. Here's some random Renaissance Latin by Aaron Petrus.
COPIOSE AC LVCVLENTER mi Aaron quae ad cantum planum pertinere uidebantur, hucusque executus es ut nihil abste omissum putem, quod siquis ignoret uitio dandum sit. Dii boni quam multa et quam praeclara sunt, quae priore libro complexus es. Ex quo quidem coniecturam facio qualia futura sint, et quam praeclara et cognitu digna, quae sequentur. Et quando finem cantui plano: et primo libro te fecisse hesterno die mihi significasti, tui memor promisisti alteram operis partem aggredere, Incredibile dictu est, quanto tenear audiendi reliqua desyderio. Vide quaeso, quinque diebus te dictante, me excipiente, ac interpraete quid sit effectum, et quae iacta sint fundamenta, immo quantum iam creuerit opus, ut si etiam partem hanc illius solam quis edat magnum quidem, ac non parua laude dignum efficisse purandus sit.
In medieval languages, spelling rules were generally very flexible, people wrote according to their own dialects, you sometimes find weird letters that don't exist anymore (Þ and ʒ in English are always springing to my mind.) The examples are just some random examples to give a gist of the kind of differences you'd see compared to the modern forms of these languages.
Knowing how to read them is probably going to be helpful to anyone trying to decipher the Voynich. Has anyone got some recommendations for helpful books or websites for learning medieval languages?
|
|
|
|
| Unclear Latin word in 14th c document |
|
Posted by: -JKP- - 07-09-2016, 06:51 AM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (6)
|
|
Unfortunately, I neglected to screensnap the sample but for those familiar with classical Latin, I'm trying to work out a scrawly mystery word...
"Cum a??? vadis per aco ..." (the "co" in aco is superscripted)
I'm thinking it might be Cum autem vadis per... ? Or is there a better interpretation for the a-word?
For context, it's the first sentence following a 14th-century point-list of stars/planets.
|
|
|
|
| 4o |
|
Posted by: Botis - 07-09-2016, 06:16 AM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (14)
|
|
I was looking at an old book called You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., it being an old guide to reading medieval writing styles and abbreviations.
Something I noticed on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., is that the way they're writing P looks a lot like voynich 4o.
But this got me thinking -- might it be that 4 and o are always together because it's actually one letter? Are there any examples where 4 is not followed by o?
|
|
|
|
|
![[Image: wordfrequenices.jpg]](https://voynichattacks.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/wordfrequenices.jpg)
