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Beyond 43N; 5E. Evidence and discussion

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• Beyond 43N; 5E. Evidence and discussion

• Beyond 43N; 5E. Evidence and discussion

  Diane > 10-09-2016, 08:34 AM

  The balance of evidence is plainly in favour of the manuscript's having been manufactured somewhere in Europe during the fifteenth century.
  
  At present the date-range 1405-1438 is the most objective for that manufacture, but as regards the manuscript's content and especially its imagery, there has been a noticeable absence of open investigation or enquiry, despite the various indications which have been recognised since the 1920s that the content does not present as of medieval European character and origin.
  
  Accepting the obvious fact that the 'Germanic' theory is the one which has been most consistently and enegetically promoted for the past ten years and more, and that most people interested in this manuscript will be fully familiar with its propositions and items proffered in support, this thread is, specifically, about matter which comes from the rest of the world - beyond the boundaries of "43 degrees North, 5 degrees East".
  
  We have already seen Linda mention the Yemen; Koen and Sam G. discussing Syria and North Africa (including Egypt) and of course I make no secret of believing that whatever the language of the written text, the evidence is overwhelming that the imagery did not originate in the Latin culture of medieval Europe.
  
  With all due politeness, may I ask that those adhering to the 'germanic/central Europe' proposition contribute their ideas to the many other forums and threads in which that theory is constantly re-presented?

• RE: Beyond 43N; 5E. Evidence and discussion

  Koen G > 10-09-2016, 12:04 PM

  Oh.. where to start
  
  I've always found it striking that some Egyptian patterns are still recognizable in a number of folios, especially in quire 13 (bathy) and the month roundels.
  These are images I've shared before, but it's nice to have them all in one thread:
  
  
  
  What I've collected above are just some of the many examples of images that are found on the counter weights of Egyptian menat necklaces. These were a sort of aegis, a shield worn on the chest symbolizing protection. As we can see in the Egyptian examples, the common theme is protection, and in some cases fertility. Also, being hidden on the water.
  
  What struck me is that the pattern around these nymphs was the same, as wel as the flattened-circle shape of the body of water. These nymphs appear to be crouching and lying low, especially compared to the ones in the other body of water on the page, which makes me believe that the "hidden" quality is important here.  Diane, if I recall correctly, you also thought of these nymphs as being portrayed as "not visible".
  
  If we compare the parallel lines between the border on top and the top nymphs' heads, we can also see that a similar pattern is used to symbolize the papyrus stalks, for example in the bottom left menat necklace.
  
  
  I have also noted that a number of patterns in the barrels correspond to patterns on Bastet's dress. Bastet was a goddess of fertility and protection, and her statuettes became very popular in the Greco-Roman period. Scholars aren't sure of the meaning of these varying patterns, but the most reasonable assumption is that they are just supposed to indicate that the fabric is intricate, valuable... This might give us a clue about the meaning of some of the patterns on these nymph baskets:
  
  
  

  ---

  And of course, once one starts looking into Egyptian art, it becomes clear that the way the VM draws flowing river water is a very common Egyptian custom. Diane has also noticed this before. I attach my comparison between two VM folios and a Ptolemaic period scroll:

• RE: Beyond 43N; 5E. Evidence and discussion

  Diane > 10-09-2016, 12:59 PM

  Koen,
  Yes, I've also found patterns like that in non-European sources.
  Your details are very convincing too.
  
  A while ago, when it was being argued that 'hatching' in the VMS was proof that the imagery was Renaissance, I illustrated the way that you find hatching like that at the base of folio 1v even in Egypt
  Sorry this picture is blurred - that's how I received it:-
  
  
  and full cross-hatching too.
  
  
  
  In fact, the Egyptians were really into patterns and had a full repertoire.  (see the pattern formed of a larger circle with a smaller one inside?  You see that on one of the 'barrels'.  
  
  
  
  
  The interesting thing about Egyptian patterns is that we think they were not purely decorative: that each had a distinct significance, related among other things to colour and perhaps to a related mineral.  Those correspondences are expressed in words in some of the Egyptian writings.  The crocodile, for example, is described as green, or as of lapis lazuli and so on.  The trouble is that the whole nature of how ancients described colour is still one being  explored (and thus amiably debated between experts) so we can't be really sure if by 'lapis' was meant the same as we'd mean by blue, or by green, or even by black.
  
  Not that we still think that people really saw colours differently but they mentally assigned them differently - probably more by density of tone than by hue... or at least that's one view for which there is reasonable evidence and balanced argument.
  
  Cheers

• RE: Beyond 43N; 5E. Evidence and discussion

  Koen G > 10-09-2016, 02:11 PM

  The concentric circles on that crocodile are surely interesting. It would be nice to have a Greek or Egyptian around to tell us what these patterns mean
  
  I have always wondered what the "scales" on Osiris' throne mean. They are found in a wide range of contexts, sometimes dotted, sometimes not. On thrones, though, they seem to have become standard by the Ptolemaic period and very likely to denote some kind of material (metal?). I include the bottom nymph for comparison. This pattern is also found in Greek pottery, for example.
  
  The top nymph reminded me of the way Osiris' mummy wrapping was drawn, though I admit the resemblance is not complete. Also note the similar use of "hatching" on Osiris' staff.
  
  The image is taken from a Ptolemaic period scroll of otherwise unknown origin.

• RE: Beyond 43N; 5E. Evidence and discussion

  Diane > 10-09-2016, 03:18 PM

  Koen,
  That's another good find.  I don't think either of us (do we?) think the manuscript's about Egyptian religion, but I think it should be said plainly that we're talking about the forms found in the imagery which constantly, and consistently, refer to the eastern or southern Mediterranean.
  
  The way I see it, these elements add to the likelihood that Baresch really did know something about the manuscript and its provenance.  There's more in favour of his saying the source was "Egyptian" in some way than for any connection to Rudolf.  Nothing in the manuscript suggests that. Plenty does support Baresch's comments.
  
  Like you, I lean towards Greco-Egyptian (Hellenistic) period for the sources from which the imagery derives.
  
  Here, for example is the model which I think also informs the "fairy with wand" image in the manuscript.
  
  

  

  
  

  

  
  
  
  and here's the 'handfast' pair:
  
  

  

  
  

  

  
  
  

  I could go on, but you get the picture..  I think the 'angel with star-shield' is the most interesting by far because we can date the medallion to the early Hellenistic period, while Egypto-Persian culture was still strong within Egypt. 

  
  

  This raises the interesting possibility that the series is on this long, long foldout because transcribed from an original that could have been on papyrus. Even in parts of Europe, papyrus was being used as late as the 11thC.  It was employed by the Normans in Siicily, and by the Popes.  Not impossible.

  ---

  Oh - and of course the Scales which are nothing like those in European or Islamic manuscripts. They *always* - without exception - show the trays or baskets tied or fastened directly to the crossbeam like this
  Like this, and the next one
  
  
  

  

  
  

  But as you'll see though surprisingly many people apparently can't - here we have a narrower thing, here drawn like a rod, which passes though the crossbar's   (hollow?) centre, with the trays hanging from that.

  

  
  

  Now, if there were ever scales like that used in medieval Europe I've yet to see them, and I don't limit the search to nice manuscripts.

  
  

  I think what the original looked like was something more like a type you find in the older, and eastern side of the Mediterranean. I'll show a hand-held and a couple of standing versions: (note the hear-shaped weight). In the first image it means 'gold standard'.

  
  

  

  
  

  

  
  

  and here is the Egyptian form, the outdoor, mercantile version

  

  
  

  and the indoor 'Pharaonic' version

  

  
  

  

  
  
  

  I hope you don't think this is "off topic" for patterns.  I think it shows that your suggesting the patterns might derive from the practices of Egyptian scribes and artisans finds support elsewhere in the same folios.

• RE: Beyond 43N; 5E. Evidence and discussion

  Koen G > 10-09-2016, 04:00 PM

  I definitely feel the same about the papyrus-foldout hypothesis, also for the small plant section foldouts by the way.
  
  It's interesting to see your Gemini coin. I had reached a similar conclusion with reference to Roman mariage imagery.
  
  I also agree that we are comparing visual language and that Egyptian religion is not the subject of the MS. I make one exception for some quire 13 folios which appear to refer to Egyptian mourning customs, though again not as a primary subject.

• RE: Beyond 43N; 5E. Evidence and discussion

  Diane > 11-09-2016, 06:39 AM

  I found another evidence of paper/papyrus in the manuscript:
  It was numbered 67r-1 in the Yale foliation - haven't checked it against the Beinecke's re-foliation.  This is the detail. See the tears in it?  The finely rippled margin is yet another of those graphic conventions established already in dynastic Egypt, where it means 'papyrus' or more exactly because it is found in the hands of the celestial Recorder goddess who writes on the tree of heaven - immortal papyrus, the scroll of heaven.  Interestingly, the only similar form, using a circular folding fan to record the heavens, was from Christian Ethiopia.  I daresay you've seen that, but for anyone else who might be interested, I'll add it again here.
  
  
  
  
  I think the number and quality of parallels for the imagery in this manuscript that come from the eastern side of the Mediterranean - and eastwards of that - are such that it must take enormous will-power to ignore them and keep busy looking for things to support the "Latin European Christian" storyline.   But then some people can.

• RE: Beyond 43N; 5E. Evidence and discussion

  -JKP- > 11-09-2016, 08:21 AM

  (11-09-2016, 06:39 AM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
  
  I think the number and quality of parallels for the imagery in this manuscript that come from the eastern side of the Mediterranean - and eastwards of that - are such that it must take enormous will-power to ignore them and keep busy looking for things to support the  "Latin European Christian" storyline.   But then some people can.

  
  
  I don't think ideas and imagery outside of central Europe or east of the Mediterranean are being ignored—I'm certainly not doing it—I think other people have other interests. R. Sale is interested in the pairing paradigm and heraldry—that doesn't mean he is ignoring you. Some are interested in astronomy and cosmology—they're not ignoring eastern influences, they usually mention the Arabic manuscripts. Others are specifically interested in computational attacks on the text. I doubt if they are ignoring eastern influences either—they're just busy with other things.
  
  
  I am interested in plants and text, but the manuscript is long and detailed and there's so much to study in there that I haven't even LOOKED at all of the images yet, including some of the plants.
  
  Let's keep to the facts and stop the constant insinuations that researchers are ignoring the things that interest you. That's their prerogative. Maybe they have limited time. Maybe they have more specialized interests. Maybe they don't feel they have the background to evaluate imagery from other cultures. Leave them alone to do what interests them and post what interests you without the constant finger pointing.
  
  Thank you.

• RE: Beyond 43N; 5E. Evidence and discussion

  Koen G > 11-09-2016, 09:07 AM

  (11-09-2016, 08:21 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Maybe they don't feel they have the background to evaluate imagery from other cultures. 

  
  This is certainly true - one needs a certain basic knowledge about a subject to be able to evaluate anything. When I started studying the MS I knew absolutely nothing about astronomy for example, I didn't even know how constellations worked. One of the big advantages of my studies so far is that I've learned a lot
  This ties in to the "experts" problem. They tend to know a lot about one subject and respond from that frame of reference.
  
  Anyway, I don't think you personally are meant - I know you always consider a variety of sources. Like you I'd also prefer to stay on topic here. So what is your opinion about the parallels in the patterns?

• RE: Beyond 43N; 5E. Evidence and discussion

  Diane > 11-09-2016, 09:20 AM

  JKP
  
  I hold the opinion, and I repeat that in my opinion it must take enormous will-power to concentrate on the chosen line (I will retract 'story' because it could be mis-intepreted to mean 'fiction' rather than 'historical narrative').
  
  Please do not imagine that what I say is all about myself.  I am speaking about the history of Voynich studies, and this is a constant in its history, from before the time I was born.
  
  Newbold raised the question, however indirectly, of neo-Pythagorean influence in the manuscript. (His article to the Franciscan journal is actually describing a neo-pythagorean intepretation of one of the folios).
  
  Soon afterwards, people began considering Spain and the Balearics.  People have noticed an Iberian influence over and over again, but it is lost - chiefly I think because of the emphasis which was placed by Voynich on the Rudolf story.
  With all the other accounts of the manuscript - the New World theory; Nahuatl theory; Balkans theory and even the new claimed translation which has the language 'Old Czech'  we have a universe of potential distractions from researching any particular line.  I specified "European Christian" because no-body has paid much attention to the non-Christian population.
  
  I would add that had I made the following comment about another member, I rather think you would consider it an ad.hominem.
  

  Quote:... stop the constant insinuations that researchers are ignoring the things that interest you ... without the constant finger pointing.

  ---

  Koen -
  apologies for the off-topic reply here.
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