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| Thematic and translation of the VM |
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Posted by: luiscrassus - 25-03-2018, 05:25 PM - Forum: Theories & Solutions
- Replies (6)
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Thematic and translation of VM.
The VM deals with human souls, that left underworld and return home. Obsessed by devil, and damned souls must be bathed by holy (sacred) reverend, monks and angels in holy water and purify from hell's mud (on drawings it is a green water), so they amend and can return to underworld. Herbs on drawings illustrate obsessed souls. There are no receipt in VM at all.
The map in VM tells the story of men-souls, that wander across the country and seek the route to the postmortem garden (Elysium), where they must step forward the God's court, that will decide, if they are worthy for immortality. Many disasters are also described: volcano eruption, earth quake, muddy floods, sinking port (harbor,dock), opening in overpass and hell gate that absorbs people. Men that attempt to escape from disaster, pass the rocky massifs, some fall in to gap. From the underground gigantic hell catfishes go out and destroy the country. Faithful pray in church, but devils interrupt the mass. . . . .
VM can be compared to artworks of Dante Alighieri.
Text map VM-rosette in the right middle.
dilez(envoys) v(from,of) imoro (worthy immortality)doad (got) ilo (beyond). amesdo (The outside was) tulo (guarded by) ela (the damneds). nesoldo (Postmortem garden) les (of the fairs) vims (and braves,) vol (cannot be) amsrox (entered) vimsfo (by blissfuls). ameshes (Knit) ameslo (by spirits) amelo (in the tavern). amelo (In the tavern) vi (they found) vilo (miserables) ela (damneds) azlo (who whispered dogu (in principle) viro (men) am (theirself) sro (for entry) amoro (must pay). amoro (Paid) viro (men) vslo (by purse) dilox (obsessed) diz (denars) vilaes (governor) vildo (of wilderness).
asquivo (Departs were) avil (summoned) amslo (for mass)
qei (They) dilo (left) avei (to confession) fo (of fate-Gots court)
ams (Such) vim (powerful)
dims (sole) mono (mountains)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Luis Crassus
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| Lunar mansions... yet again. |
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Posted by: Diane - 25-03-2018, 11:09 AM - Forum: Astrology & Astronomy
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Even at Voynich ninja, a search on 'lunar mansions' will turn up a long list of posts.
I've been explaining that they are not 'magical' by definition... and explaining their use as an earlier and persistent alternative (beyond Europe) for astronomical and geographic co-ordinates.
I've talked about their use in navigation, as explained by the fifteenth-century master of the Indian Ocean routes, Ibn Majid. I've quoted Sergeant and others on the Yemeni agricultural calendars which name the months in that way.
I - and doubtless others - have noted that they name the lunar months of the Islamic calendar, and that every muezzin would have known them and the stars marking each.
It is therefore a little disappointing to notice that the older idea that any mention of the manzil must be 'magical' is being pursued again, but the bright side is that in a passage translated recently by Marco Ponzi there are two clear indications that the Latin material has come from Islamic Spain, and that its basic attitudes are compatible with the period when Ibn Arabi wrote his 'Bezels of Wisdom' and 'Holy Names..'
I've also spoken about these works before, in explaining how the system of lunar mansions was employed in much the way the Psalter was in earlier Latin Europe: to provide the basic structure upon with additional sets of information were attached in one variation of aids to recall.
Anyway, the clues in Ponzi's translation are these:
... oh, sorry. I can't be more precise, or quote the original passages because Marco Ponzi doesn't wish me to read what he writes, and has now (since I read the post first) blocked my ability to read it. Things the non-conservative are not meant to read, apparently.
Hardly conducive to scholarly exchange, improved understanding or reasonable debate but there you go.
I don't quite see the sense of it, frankly, because any spammer could surely just get a new email address, use someone else's computer or employ some similar dishonesty if they wished.
If they cared enough.
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| Claimed translations |
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Posted by: Diane - 24-03-2018, 11:11 AM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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Two things - first, has anyone made a list of every claimed translation for the written part of the text? Someone asked me how many there are now, and I found myself unable even to guess. Twenty? Thirty?
Secondly, I thought it might be interesting to compare each claimed translation of a single folio - I've chosen folio 33v because the text is fairly short but not too much so.
Anyone able to provide one or more claimed translation of f.33v?
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| A random language upon which to experiment |
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Posted by: davidjackson - 23-03-2018, 08:28 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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Thought experiment in progress....
We wish to analyse an entirely unknown language to see if our statistical models work upon it to produce meaning.
The language should be European based, but not a formalised main stream lingua franca. The language must be organic, as opposed to constructed. At the same time, we need to be able to translate this language to ensure the accuracy of our models.
For reasons of transcription, we use the European alphabet, but we are not concerned with standardised spelling.
So, what language to use? Here's one example, Polari (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
Quote:Polari (or alternatively Parlare, Parlary, Palare, Palarie, Palari; from Italian parlare, "to talk") is a form of cant slang used in Britain by some actors, circus and fairground showmen, professional wrestlers, merchant navy sailors, criminals, prostitutes, and the gay subculture. There is some debate about its origins, but it can be traced back to at least the 19th century and possibly the 16th century.
So, my question: what analysis can we run upon this "language" to gain a base reading for our statistical analysis before applying them to the Voynich language? I have lots of half formed ideas, but I would value input before expounding upon them.
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| Articles by Sukhotin |
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Posted by: ReneZ - 22-03-2018, 08:33 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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Most people will be familiar with the algorithm of Boris V. Sukhotin that identifies which characters in a text are more likely to be vowels and which are more likely to be consonants.
The Russian text was translated into English by Jacques Guy and published in Cryptologia.
There is also a copy of this article You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .
Sukhotin has designed several more articles and these were also translated by Jacques Guy. He posted them to the old mailing list in 1997.
I have converted these to HTML and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .
They seem quite interesting, and I am not aware of anyone having tried them out on the Voynich MS text.
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| Poll: Cosmic comparison |
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Posted by: R. Sale - 17-03-2018, 11:02 PM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (3)
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Seeking more discussion on the topic of Cosmic comparison between the two representations: Oresme's BNF Fr. 565 and the VMs f68v.
Oresme's (565) illustration is a non-religious representation of an earth-centered cosmos with a rather uncommon, simplified structure of three basic parts: (1) inverted T-O earth, (2) surrounding stars, (3) outer cloud band with 43 undulations.
So far, no other cosmic representation has this same structure --- with the possible exception of VMs f68v.
Proposition A: The VMs cosmic structure was derived from that of the Oresme image.
While there is much similarity is structure between the two representations, there are significant differences in their visual appearances.
Proposition B: The differences in visual appearance are intended to disguise the use of the Oresme cosmos as the source of the VMs.
Comments welcomed.
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You are welcome to add any other observations on this section.
