Dee's Table Glyph's Match Voynich Glyph's

Dee's Table Glyph's Match Voynich Glyph's - Printable Version

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Dee's Table Glyph's Match Voynich Glyph's - stellar - 05-10-2016

John Dee’s Enochian glyph’s to Voynich:

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[Image: enochianvoynich.jpg?w=840]

RE: Enochian Glyph's Match Voynich Glyph's - -JKP- - 05-10-2016

(05-10-2016, 03:10 AM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.John Dee’s Enochian glyph’s to Voynich:

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Stellar, you didn't show the Enochian glyphs. You showed the normal medieval/Renaissance letters Dee uses in his Holy Square charts and diaries.

The actual Enochian glyphs don't look like VMS letters.

[Image: The+Enochian+Alphabet.jpg]

Dee's handwriting resembles VMS script because the time period is not too distant from the VMS writing-wise and Dee wrote in several languages and was familiar with Latin abbreviation conventions and shapes.

The glyph you sampled that looks like EVA-ell is a normal medieval number 4. The o, 9, and c are normal medieval/Renaissance characters (Latin characters). The p is a normal medieval/Renaissance p. Dee also threw in Greek characters from time to time.

Why don't you learn something about medieval and Renaissance cursive scripts before you start matching up shapes you don't understand? Your presentations will be more effective and believable. You seem to want a "quick" solution. If there were a quick solution that didn't take serious research and a certain amount of time to develop, it would have been discovered more than 500 years ago or at least within 50 years of Voynich acquiring the manuscript. Some very very smart people in the intelligence community labored over this for several years.

RE: Enochian Glyph's Match Voynich Glyph's - stellar - 06-10-2016

(05-10-2016, 05:17 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(05-10-2016, 03:10 AM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.John Dee’s Enochian glyph’s to Voynich:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Stellar, you didn't show the Enochian glyphs. You showed the normal medieval/Renaissance letters Dee uses in his Holy Square charts and diaries.

The actual Enochian glyphs don't look like VMS letters.

Dee's handwriting resembles VMS script because the time period is not too distant from the VMS writing-wise and Dee wrote in several languages and was familiar with Latin abbreviation conventions and shapes.

The glyph you sampled that looks like EVA-ell is a normal medieval number 4. The o, 9, and c are normal medieval/Renaissance characters (Latin characters). The p is a normal medieval/Renaissance p. Dee also threw in Greek characters from time to time.

Why don't you learn something about medieval and Renaissance cursive scripts before you start matching up shapes you don't understand? Your presentations will be more effective and believable. You seem to want a "quick" solution. If there were a quick solution that didn't take serious research and a certain amount of time to develop, it would have been discovered more than 500 years ago or at least within 50 years of Voynich acquiring the manuscript. Some very very smart people in the intelligence community labored over this for several years.

Thanks for the update JKP,

Quote:History of the Collection

Like its contents, the history of ownership of the Voynich manuscript is contested and filled with some gaps. The codex belonged to Emperor Rudolph II of Germany (Holy Roman Emperor, 1576-1612), who purchased it for 600 gold ducats and believed that it was the work of Roger Bacon. It is very likely that Emperor Rudolph acquired the manuscript from the English astrologer John Dee (1527-1608). Dee apparently owned the manuscript along with a number of other Roger Bacon manuscripts. In addition, Dee stated that he had 630 ducats in October 1586, and his son noted that Dee, while in Bohemia, owned "a booke...containing nothing butt Hieroglyphicks, which booke his father bestowed much time upon: but I could not heare that hee could make it out." Emperor Rudolph seems to have given the manuscript to Jacobus Horcicky de Tepenecz (d. 1622), an exchange based on the inscription visible only with ultraviolet light on folio 1r which reads: "Jacobi de Tepenecz." Johannes Marcus Marci of Cronland presented the book to Athanasius Kircher (1601-1680) in 1666. In 1912, Wilfred M. Voynich purchased the manuscript from the Jesuit College at Frascati near Rome. In 1969, the codex was given to the Beinecke Library by H. P. Kraus, who had purchased it from the estate of Ethel Voynich, Wilfrid Voynich's widow.

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RE: Enochian Glyph's Match Voynich Glyph's - -JKP- - 06-10-2016

There are a lot of guesses in that assessment.

We don't know for certain that the "hieroglyphics" manuscript was the VMS or something else. Dee collected alchemical manuscripts, as did Kelley, amassed quite a large library, and appears to have brought some of his Enochian materials with him. Also, the information that we have from his son Arthur is a recollection from when Arthur was quite young and only just learning to read and anything in another language would have seemed like hieroglyphics to him at that age. Also, Egyptian and Arabic manuscripts were all the rage at the time and the circle in which Dee was working had a number of those (he wasn't the only alchemist receiving patronage at the time in Rudolph's court) and they too were referred to as "hieroglyphics" at the time (the term was used quite broadly).

We don't know for certain that Rudolph actually bought the manuscript from anyone. That is conjecture. For all we know, he may have commissioned it from one of the many people in his court. He had a botanical garden and he loved curiosities. The sum has not been proven to relate to the VMS. It's possible, but it's all circumstantial so far and needs more research.

We do not know that Tepenecz owned it. He might have, it was common to add one's name to a book in the middle ages, and he was the kind of person who would take a personal interest in a book with many plants. The writing does look very close to his, even in its abraded state.

The link to Bacon was even more tentative than the one to Dee at the time Voynich acquired the manuscript. He was HOPING it could be linked to Bacon because that would inflate the value of the manuscript.

As I mentioned before, I think it's possible it passed through Dee's hands at one point. It would fit well with his location and interests, but that doesn't prove he owned it (he might have seen it, he might even have notated it if he were involved in having it bound, but his diaries show no indication of it being in his possession or of him having tried to decode anything, even though he recorded almost everything he did). And, as I also mentioned before, he showed very little interest in plants. If given a choice between spending his money on a book that leans toward plants and one that leans toward chemistry, he'd probably choose the latter.

So maybe Dee owned it, maybe he didn't, maybe Rudolph owned it, maybe he didn't. Maybe Jacobi owned it, maybe he didn't. We don't know.

Did he write it? I'm skeptical that he did. He was busy using Kelley as a seer on a daily basis and he was under pressure to produce alchmical results, to create gold, in addition to raising a family and doing the social rounds with his patrons.

Dee may have added page numbers. He may briefly have tried to decode it (perhaps without much interest since he didn't record it in his diary). Maybe he passed it on to Rudolph rather than keeping it for himself because he was unable to use it for alchemical purposes.